PF brake discs - are they really any good!?

[_Nathan_]

Have you got the friction curve for DS3000? Very high I suspect? Is there a pad that is low in friction yet still wears disks at a very high rate?

I still think RS29 are kinder to disks :P

[shimmy]

I'd have thought wear was a function of friction rather than just pad hardness?

Get some temp paint on the new disks, be interested to see what is going on...

as DS3000 prove, the compound of the pad will have a big effect on disc wear, not always the grippiest wears most. One side is always the weaker and my guess is wioth RS14 the pad wears forst and RS29 the disc more

Friction is what is caused by both touching - which wears more or less depends upon their make up

[_Nathan_]

I'd have thought wear was a function of friction rather than just pad hardness?

Get some temp paint on the new disks, be interested to see what is going on...

[shimmy]

Not sure I follow that logic?

Look at the friction graphs - that is proof that there is more heat and friction generated at the disk face - that has to have an effect on disk wear?

in my simple mind irrespective of the heat generated by this pad you are stopping the same car from the same speed so energy dissipated is the same so maybe more heat but maybe for shorter period

surely the harder the pad the more wear on the disc for the same exercise!

[_Nathan_]

Not sure I follow that logic?

Look at the friction graphs - that is proof that there is more heat and friction generated at the disk face - that has to have an effect on disk wear?

[shimmy]

[QUOTE=_Nathan_;n512009]What are you running on the rears now then? If DS2500 over RS29 then you'll be using the front brakes more?

[quote]

well def RS29 last 20% longer, i have a few years proof

but therefore surely if the pad is lasting longer the disc isnt:smokin:

[_Nathan_]

No adjustable bias valve on a normal CSL - ways of changing the Bias I guess would be piston area, pad area, disk size\distance of caliper from hub & pad compound?

[DuncanR]

Maybe although I dropped off the RS29 at the rear because of the opposite problem.

How can brake bias be changed other than pad types?

Hydraulically ! .. Im not familiar with technically how its done on a road going CSL, but you can change it in car in a race car. There will be a bias valve somewhere in the system which adjusts the braking depending upon how hard your car dives forward ! ... im probably talking bollox now and trying to sound clever, someone more learned with pop up with all the answers in a minute ... cue Gorilla, NZ Tom, Nathan et al !
Does your backside ever feel a bit loose Shim ?:gayfight: suggesting that the car IS more front biased ? BBK's are the thing that has an effect on the brake bias, especially if you only fit them to the fronts and not the rears ... well dont they ? :hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

What are you running on the rears now then? If DS2500 over RS29 then you'll be using the front brakes more?

I can't see how you can increase friction that much and not wear the disk more? They certainly seem to major on disk life as part of the RS29 bumpf (24h races with no disk or pad change!).

[shimmy]

You obviously never met my first wife then !! :hahaha:

Brakes ?? ...who uses them anyway ! PF fronts with RS29, hardly a sound !
What about front to rear brake bias Shim? ...maybe yours is a bit out mate and loading up the fronts too much? Just a thought ..

Maybe although I dropped off the RS29 at the rear because of the opposite problem.

How can brake bias be changed other than pad types?

[DuncanR]

blaaaady hell shimmy, I've never seen a crack like that before:beer:

You obviously never met my first wife then !! :hahaha:

Brakes ?? ...who uses them anyway ! PF fronts with RS29, hardly a sound !
What about front to rear brake bias Shim? ...maybe yours is a bit out mate and loading up the fronts too much? Just a thought ..

[shimmy]

I thought RS14 were much higher friction than RS29 and therefore harder on disks? That is why I've stuck with 29s anyway?

I AM LED TO BELieVE rs14 HAVE BETTER FRICTION BUT LESS AGGRESIVE AND ABRASIVE THAN rs29 HENCE THE PAD WEARS NOT THE DISC (bloody caps)

i found that RS14 are £30 cheaper than RS29, 1mm thicker but last only 500 instead of 600 track miles. My front AP discs lasted 25% longer with RS14.

RS29 certainly have a tendancy to break up after 50% wear.

PAGID RS-14 Black Brake Pads

RS14 is our most popular ceramic based friction material. Compared to RS4-2 this compound offers a good increase in initial bite and average torque, it has very good modulation characteristics and offers good control against wheel lock at all temperatures.
While showing a reduction in pad wear, particularly at high temperatures it is still very easy in terms of disc wear and shows a reduction in surface stress fractures. RS14 will also tolerate much higher working disc temperatures than RS4-2 extending further the fade resistance.

RS14 is also used as an OEM material and supplied as an up-graded track day pad by Lotus Motorsport department. It has been shown to exhibit the most suitable level of braking force, control and modulation on popular track day cars such as Lotus Elise and Caterham. Offering consistent levels of performance and a much longer life than more inferior competitors products, without excessive disc wear while offering the driver supreme confidence.

Outside the track day environment RS14 has also shown success in short to medium distance circuit racing as well as gravel and tarmac rallying. RS14 offer very low heat conductivity which allows less thermal transfer from disc through pad, thus resulting in lower caliper and brake fluid temperatures which can have a critical effect on ultimate brake performance.

RS14 has seen good levels of success at many levels of Motorsport, from front applications on front wheel drive touring cars, front and rear applications on 2 and 4 wheel drive rally cars, as well as front and rear applications on GT and sports racing cars.


PAGID RS-29 Yellow Brake Pads

Pagid RS29 is a recent development from the bases of RS19, with a very similar friction coefficient to RS19 with improvements in initial bite offering quicker response and slightly more temperature stable at the upper levels of the temperature range. Developments in raw material selection and compounding have resulted in improvements also in pedal feel and feedback, helping with modulation particularly on lighter applications.

This material provides very good levels of performance and response at all temperature levels, only slight temperature inputs are required to bring the pad up to its optimum performance level. Another favourite with endurance racers having won many classes at all major endurance events, such as Le-Mans, Daytona, Spa, Nurburgring, etc. Due to the exceptional pad life and very low wear on brake discs it has been possible to run 24 hours with out a change of pads or discs. Able to withstand slightly higher disc temperatures than RS19, this has proved more suitable for applications running very high disc temperatures.

Although designed primarily for endurance racing, because of the consistent levels of performance and user friendliness many competitors use this material successfully for sprint and short distance races also. This has been seen in British GT Cup class, winning the Championship for the last 3 years in races averaging 1-2 hours in duration. RS29 has also found favour in the growing track day market due to the level of control, good cold performance, long life and low disc wear.

The same applies to major track day operator fleets have seen the benefit of using PAGID pads for corporate track days as an alternative to RS19 in various applications. While not being the cheapest brake pads on the market, we have proved that due to the longer life and less disc wear in comparison to other competitor’s product, running costs can be reduced in comparison to cheaper, inferior products.

It is clear that the customer should look beyond the initial purchase price and make an accurate comparison with other competitor’s products to find the most cost effective braking solution. When compared to cheaper pads that wear more quickly and reduce disc life, and may also not perform consistently to the same level, the initially more costly product can often work out to be cheaper when calculated over the entire season.

[northernjim]

Over the last 4 years i have had 3 sets of front AP discs and 1 set of PF discs, which are currently still on the car. i have to say i dotn think the PF discs are any better than the AP discs on my test results. See below.:smokin:

My first set of AP discs lasted only 700 track miles and around 2500 road miles and were 'warped' by either my crap driving first time out at Bedford OR pad deposits made them feel like they were warped, so eventually they were swapped out (April 07-August 07)

My second set of AP discs lasted around 1700 track miles and 10000 orad miles and were A1. 9August 07 - July 08). THIS IS HOW THEY LOOKED

Apart from this one in your first post :blalalala:

[glendog74]

I thought RS14 were much higher friction than RS29 and therefore harder on disks? That is why I've stuck with 29s anyway?

Maybe that's why Shimmy is going through more sets of discs than i have hot dinners :hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

I thought RS14 were much higher friction than RS29 and therefore harder on disks? That is why I've stuck with 29s anyway?