CSL vs. 996 GT3

[m33ufo]

Hi guys,

Just hoping for some opinions really. I've areed a deal on a nice low mileage CSL (6750) which has unfortunately been delayed a few weeks by the current owner. This has now got me looking at other cars - kind of inevitable really, I've had £40K in my bank account for a few weeks now waiting to find a new home!

If I stick with the CSL then I'm happy to wait for the car I've agreed a deal on...but...I keep seeing GT3's! Has anyone owned both CSL and GT3?

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1077741.htm

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1121792.htm

[Ade]

Yes, I owned a 996GT3 for over 3 years and 30k+ miles. Modded pretty much everything on it during that time courtesy of Manthey and it was a razor sharp track-focussed scalpel when I sold it earlier this year. Out went the GT3, in came the CSL.

I think it depends on what you want to do with the car. The 6Gt3 is a brilliant tool. But I think it is very hard to fall in love with, in the same way the CSL rewards you instantly. The GT3 is all about precision driving, eeking out the fastest and smoothest lines, perfecting your braking approaching the apex, and modulating the throttle at and through the apex. It rewards you in 0.01s against the clock. The GT3 also gives you the sense of occasion on road trips and bragging rights in the paddock... something you never really get with the CSL. If you are chasing 10/10ths on track, relish the attention on the road and in the paddock, then the GT3 is tops (apart from going the Lambo/Fezza route)

But the CSL is, by far, the most fun car I've ever owned! For one, it's understated. SG/SB is about as exciting the colours get, and for most on the road, it's just another 3-series. Flying undercover, imho, is a good thing - especially in this market. The CSL rewards you instantly on track - you can pitch is sideways, in the dry, in the wet, and get away with it. It is easy to drive at 9/10ths (easier than the GT3), and it is the quicker car A-B in real world road conditions. In short, the CSL is an absolute HOOLIGAN!

On track, the GT3 at the limit is tricky - it will teach you how to drive again, steering from the rear, and using the mechanical grip/aero to your advantage. Underestimate it, or overestimate your abilities, and it will bite. Hard and fast.

Depending on how deep your pockets are, you will either find tracking 45k worth of GT3 painless or poor VFM compared to 25-30k of CSL. Especially when the CSL is good enough to give the GT3 a proper dogfight on most circuits (except on power circuits like Spa/Silverstone and if the circuit is clear). At the 'Ring, there is nothing in it except for driver ability. The CSL laps as quickly in pro hands as does the GT3.

On the road, for normal hooning around, the CSL is the better car imho. Add in occasional passengers/urban use etc, and it's a no brainer.

I don't miss the social attention of the GT3... but that's just me. Both cars are equally special - there are touches of the CSL that make it feel very very special. Hold out for the CSL imho

[m33ufo]

That pretty much answers my question :smt023

The CSL has easily given me the most enjoyable driving experience I've had to date - well almost, I had the use of an F360 for half a day purely on track about 3 years ago and I have to say it was stunning! No idea what driving one on the road would be like though.

I'll do my best to wait a few more weeks

[Jeff]

Hmmm, I'd probably swing the other way to Ade. Having just sold my GT3 and now having a CSL I miss the GT3. I find the CSL a little too "normal"? It's hard to explain, maybe it just does things too well? Yes it's a hoot, I've put it around the ring doing some hard laps on my first trip and I'd say it was as quick as the GT3 and was probably easier to get up to speed. The GT3 does require respect to drive as ham fisted driving will see you into a wall. Experimenting with the rear end in a GT3 should be done well away from fixed objects as they can be unpredicable - although I never personally found this.

My experience of the GT3 was overall positive, not scary and after I got over the odd feeling of the rear under braking I found it to be a weapon.

I think I just liked the 911 quirks but hey, that's why there is more than one brand of car...........

Cheers,
Jeff

[spanner]

It's pretty simple to me. If you need back seats, get a csl, if not, get a Porsche. It is by far the more special of the two imho. Although I have only driven the rs version!

[m33ufo]

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater?

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in one of the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.

[Jeff]

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater?

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.

Make sure you rev it past 6000rpm when you do. It's not until then that the exhaust opens up fully and screams it head off!

Yes, test drive one. What you will feel is brakes that have little assistance but when pushed are amazing and steering that feeds back oodles of information. Don't be surprised if you think the front end feels light at first - it's a 911 thing that goes after time (ie, you get used to it). It's at least worth a try.........

[m33ufo]

Make sure you rev it past 6000rpm when you do. It's not until then that the exhaust opens up fully and screams it head off!

Yes, test drive one. What you will feel is brakes that have little assistance but when pushed are amazing and steering that feeds back oodles of information. Don't be surprised if you think the front end feels light at first - it's a 911 thing that goes after time (ie, you get used to it). It's at least worth a try.........

Will do....I've had 3 Boxsters (986, 987S and 987S 3.4) and a 996 C2 in the past so I know how the cars feel but it's probably like comparing an M3 with a CSL.

[Andyk]

I've driven a GT3 and loved it but did not have as much fun in it as the CSL but that maybe have been because I didn't get enough time behind the wheel and with the CSL you can jump and enjoy almost straight away.

I think for me the other thing would be looks and the GT3 MRK2 is just not as good looking as the MRK1...Think it's those lights.

Look forward to hearing your thougths.

[m33ufo]

......the GT3 MRK2 is just not as good looking as the MRK1...Think it's those lights.

Actually it's the opposite for me, I think the Mk1 front end looks much more dated than the Mk2.

[Ade]

Will do....I've had 3 Boxsters (986, 987S and 987S 3.4) and a 996 C2 in the past so I know how the cars feel but it's probably like comparing an M3 with a CSL.

There is a very significant difference between the GT3 and a normal 911 - more so than the difference between the M3 and CSL. Drivetrain, engine, suspension, arms, steering, etc is all completely different on the GT3 compared to the standard 911. Only the basic tub, interior, and chassis remains the same.

Also, be aware that maintenance of a 6-10 year old GT3 where things start going wrong is not going to be cheap and will make a BMW warrantied CSL look like a bargain. Around the 50k mile mark, there are a lot of less obvious items that start getting worn out needing replacement. Bushes, driveshafts, clutches, diffs, engine mounts, synchros, leaking dampers start getting tired. It is also highly unlikely that the 6GT3 will be covered by the [now ridiculous] Porsche extended warranty meaning you better have the wallet to fund the addiction. It's not surprising that there has been a significant turnover of GT3s this year in particular compared to the previous 2-3 years when most of the 996 GT3s were around the 20-40k mile mark. Just look at the number of newbie 996GT3 owners showing up on the various Porsche forums this year... They are all excited and rightfully so, but the reality is that compared to a new 996 or 997GT3, the current crop of cars are getting tired, expensive to maintain, and are being superceded by newer/faster/more desirable cars. You are, in truth, buying the dream and badge. Be very careful in buying... there are some real dogs out there lacking the maintenance required to keep them in top form.

Keep in mind that the new 3.8L 997GT3 mk2 just released has, imho, moved the game on more than any previous post-Mk1 6GT3. Even more serious a car, but it has genuine everyday usability AND the top end track manners to distance itself from the previous 3.6L GT3 that stayed top of the tree for the past 10 years. Porsche play a very clever game and evolution is the constant in the Porsche Arms Race.

[NZ_M3]

There is a very significant difference between the GT3 and a normal 911 - more so than the difference between the M3 and CSL. Drivetrain, engine, suspension, arms, steering, etc is all completely different on the GT3 compared to the standard 911. Only the basic tub, interior, and chassis remains the same.

I do believe the GT3 uses the 911 C4 chassis for more regidity?

[Ade]

I do believe the GT3 uses the 911 C4 chassis for more regidity?

Yes, that's true and why the front boot is smaller compared to other 2wd 996s as the C4 tub allowed space for the front differential that imtrudes into the front boot space. Early Mk1 GT3s had additional welding along certain seams to further increase strength. It was the most reliable GT3 made to date, and it also had things like a 3rd balancer shaft unlike the Mk2 onwards.

From the mk2 996Gt3 onwards, it was a mass produced car made on the same production line at Zuffenhausen as normal 911s. The mk1 6Gt3 was hand made at the old motorsport factory at Weissach alongside the GT3R, GT3 RS (Motorsport, not the common GT3 RS) and RSR. With the mass production of the Mk2 came a slight number of problems introduced through less strict QC on the production line. Sadly, the 997 GT3 is now just another mass produced vehicle and suffers from a high percentage of engine problems (mostly oil leaks) because of the crap QC :bigcry: Totally unacceptable imho in a 80-100k car.

[spanner]

Actually it's the opposite for me, I think the Mk1 front end looks much more dated than the Mk2.

I agree - I think the mk2 looks loads better than the mk1

[spanner]

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater?

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in one of the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.

tbh - if you are after a track car then yes!

I have a csl rather than a porker because it is my main car and I need rear seats for the kids when I need to take them somewhere.

The main purpose of the car is for Euro trips, Spa, Ring etc. I do the odd UK track day with it.

Absolutely nothing that weighs 1.4 tons can compare to a radical, caterham, atom, lotus 211 etc. as a track toy.

I have never tried a single seater by I rate caterhams about as highly as anything as a pure toy. A far purer, harder hit than a Porsche or a csl could ever give.

Don't get me wrong, the csl & GT3's are awesome on track and I rate them very highly. They are immensly capable for what they are. But they will always be barges due to their weight! Also very expensive to run regularly on track compared to a lighweight nail.