Traction Issues?

[Nords]

Nords, the recommended setting for Intrax for road is 10 clicks on, after unwinding anti clockwise until it stops turning. For the track its 30 clicks on

I have some settings from the first owner (Curly / Dontdobends) for various tracks which seem sensible. I'm going to stick with 'clicking' from max rebound/compression for the reasons mentioned below (my Intrax range is 45 clicks on the front and 55 on the rear) so I'm assuming your 10 road / 30 track is my (road) 35F & 45R and..(track) 15F & 25R. Seems sensible too (ie in the same ballpark with Curly's).

I was recently told this by a friend who has spent a fair bit of time sorting CSLs and so really does know what he is talking about...

I did try a hard front and soft rear but only for 20 miles or so. It felt better on the brakes and seems to stop a fraction quicker on smooth surfaces, possibly less on the bumps. Possibly less tramlining but It seems a bit harsh on the cotswold bumpy roads...

If you run the dampers max softness you are more than likely TOO soft and the damper will be unable to control the spring, which will lead to all sorts of handling issues. Too soft at the front will cause excessive weight transfer too under braking, which could result in problems at the rear, or confusion in the ABS.

I actually spent quite a bit of time with Henk on the settings in Holland, which resulted in a heavily altered front damper with a large bump stop, and a longer travel rear. I don't know how old your shocks are, but a rebuild to the latest spec might be a good idea. Definitely with Henk we worked out that a stiffer front was the way to go with a softer rear, though it does depend on what spring rates you have. I don't think there are two 1k2 kits alike.

Best setup was spring rates of 100 at the front and 50 at the rear for road use. Some kits had 60 at the rear for mostly track use, which is a bit stiff, and others had as little as 80 at the front and even 40 at the rear for more compliance. With that kind of setup you really need a stiffer anti-roll bar like the H&R adjustable ones for track use.

The general rule with the CSL and M3 for that matter is the front dampers should be stiffer than the rear, and the rear springs should be softish for good traction. Tyre pressures too have a significant effect, particularly with Cups on. Generally I ran 32 psi all round hot on the road.

I seem to recall Henk mentioned it is best to set the dampers from fully stiff to where you want, not from fully soft. The clicks are not an exact measure, so you can end up with different damping side-to-side if you are not careful.

You probably should get your setup checked too, as the rake of the car seems to also make quite a difference to how the car behaves in relation to springs etc. Properly corner weighting the car is a good idea, if it has not been done already.

If you have the time, you can go over to Holland and get Henk to set up the car the way you want, which may well mean rebuilding the dampers then and there. Quite fantastic to watch. You might need to allow two days for it though. No idea on costs, but it won't be too bad, and if you time it with a Spa trip, even better as he isn't that far away from the circuit. Henk has a little circuit of all kinds of horrible surfaces he tests the car on, so you can see everything from bumpy dirt, to cobbles, to smooth surfaces. Bit scary when he takes you round them though!

Ahh, the old OGO machine? :thumbs:

I popped over to see him about something else and he would let it drop about 'pikey goodyears'. Amusing Nofolk Broads accent and everything!

[_Nathan_]

Nords, the recommended setting for Intrax for road is 10 clicks on, after unwinding anti clockwise until it stops turning. For the track its 30 clicks on

Recommended by who?

All of this depends on spring rates too, what rates were they running when that was recommended to you?

With 100kg front and 50kg rears I found that a little under half way on each (18 from soft front and 22 from soft rear) was good.

[kbird]

Recommended by who?

All of this depends on spring rates too, what rates were they running when that was recommended to you?

With 100kg front and 50kg rears I found that a little under half way on each (18 from soft front and 22 from soft rear) was good.

Simpson Motorsport gave me the settings when they fitted my Intrax Kit, see below

[Nords]

Interesting that that claims 40 clicks adjustment back and front when mine do 45 and 55? The last 2-3 are quite 'tight' but the rears have at least 10 more clicks than the front...

PS those are clearly a base point for Intrax, ie 40 clicks, a quarter in for road, a half for sport road and three-quarters for track... I'm sure Henk would agree that is very rough...

[_Nathan_]

they have 40 clicks front and 50 rear. Don't overtighten them

What spring rates were those recommendations for though? They do loads of them and the dampers have enough latitude to cope but it does mean that you need to specify rates when comparing settings.

[Nords]

Is the spring rate written on the springs, Nathan? I'll have to have the wheels off to check...

[_Nathan_]

No idea but I know the range is huge - you can go from as soft as 80/40kg up to around 160/80 (from speaking to Intrax) without a revalve, I've got 130/70 going on I think. I imagine that settings for the 80/40 springs won't be quite so good on the 160/80 springs if you see what I mean so it is an important factor.

[Nords]

Indeed Nathan, totally agree. Tony said the same below...

I have some settings from the first owner (Curly / Dontdobends) for various tracks which seem sensible. I'm going to stick with 'clicking' from max rebound/compression for the reasons mentioned below (my Intrax range is 45 clicks on the front and 55 on the rear) so I'm assuming your 10 road / 30 track is my (road) 35F & 45R and..(track) 15F & 25R. Seems sensible too (ie in the same ballpark with Curly's).

I was recently told this by a friend who has spent a fair bit of time sorting CSLs and so really does know what he is talking about...

If you run the dampers max softness you are more than likely TOO soft and the damper will be unable to control the spring, which will lead to all sorts of handling issues. Too soft at the front will cause excessive weight transfer too under braking, which could result in problems at the rear, or confusion in the ABS.

I actually spent quite a bit of time with Henk on the settings in Holland, which resulted in a heavily altered front damper with a large bump stop, and a longer travel rear. I don't know how old your shocks are, but a rebuild to the latest spec might be a good idea. Definitely with Henk we worked out that a stiffer front was the way to go with a softer rear, though it does depend on what spring rates you have. I don't think there are two 1k2 kits alike.

Best setup was spring rates of 100 at the front and 50 at the rear for road use. Some kits had 60 at the rear for mostly track use, which is a bit stiff, and others had as little as 80 at the front and even 40 at the rear for more compliance. With that kind of setup you really need a stiffer anti-roll bar like the H&R adjustable ones for track use.

The general rule with the CSL and M3 for that matter is the front dampers should be stiffer than the rear, and the rear springs should be softish for good traction. Tyre pressures too have a significant effect, particularly with Cups on. Generally I ran 32 psi all round hot on the road.

I seem to recall Henk mentioned it is best to set the dampers from fully stiff to where you want, not from fully soft. The clicks are not an exact measure, so you can end up with different damping side-to-side if you are not careful.

You probably should get your setup checked too, as the rake of the car seems to also make quite a difference to how the car behaves in relation to springs etc. Properly corner weighting the car is a good idea, if it has not been done already.

If you have the time, you can go over to Holland and get Henk to set up the car the way you want, which may well mean rebuilding the dampers then and there. Quite fantastic to watch. You might need to allow two days for it though. No idea on costs, but it won't be too bad, and if you time it with a Spa trip, even better as he isn't that far away from the circuit. Henk has a little circuit of all kinds of horrible surfaces he tests the car on, so you can see everything from bumpy dirt, to cobbles, to smooth surfaces. Bit scary when he takes you round them though!

[big eyes]

Nords - my 2p's worth - i have completely std suspension set up, but have recently changed from PS2's all round to Goodyears - have noticed that the ride is smoother and that i am having similiar traction issues to you. When giving it the beans the traction control light is flickering, (when it wasn't previously), even on relatively smooth dry roads, with no steering angle on. Odd - i am guessing both the issues above relate to softer sidewalls of the F1's, but not sure. Not really an issue on roads (although irratating) but slightly concerned about what the goodyears are going to be like on track... does any one have any experience??

alex

[Nords]

Interesting Alex, maybe it is the Goodyears then. They won't see the track ever but it was surprising on the road. I have noticed some low speed, front end understeer in the dry with them too...

[shimmy]

i have only had PS2 on road Nords and it is pretty hard in the dry to light them up

offer is still there to try mine as the rims/tyres will just be sitting around all summer in the garage:thumbs:

[Nords]

Cheers matey, when I'm back, I'll come round and do a couple of trackdays on them! :whistle:

Hehehehe... :thumbs:

[HC1963M3]

I know the lads at Simpsons aren't big fans of the PS2s due to sidewall issues they've had on at least a couple of occasions.

I've used then on Stuttgarts finest and never had ANY complaints. They're not the best at anything, but as a brilliant compromise they're unbeatable IMO.

Are the Goodyears giving you more confidence and allowing you to get on the power earlier Nords ?

After the lads at Simpsons had fitted the rear axle tightening kit I thought something was wrong with my car. The dash lit up whenever I got on the throttle heavily. However when I analyzed what was going on it was all down to me and the fact that I'd got so much more confidence in the rear end grip of the car mid bend that I was getting back on the throttle earlier and more heavily.

I took the car to Chris Franklin for a geo set up after Simpsons had fitted the RATK and AP 4 pots on the rear of the car.

Chris found that a halfway house track/road compromise set up had been put on the car. He reset it up to the standard settings with a very minor tweak (rear toe)

The traction improved dramatically, albeit initially the rear end of the car felt "wayward" under heavy high speed braking.

I found it really disconcerting at first (having got used to the set up the car came on whilst driving the car really hard around France and Italy for just over a week and 3500 miles immediately after I'd bought it)
I think I'd adapted my driving style to the car and it wasn't a set up that suited my driving style really.

Having now done a further 6000 miles I've found the setup Chris put on the car to be spot on.

My experiences with Goodyear F1s are from a long time ago, so they're most likely not relevant, but nontheless I found them to be superb in the wet, but lacking in feedback in the dry, their sidewalls always felt too soft and thus they made the front end of the car feel vague (not quite understeer, but lacking any turn in precision or crispness)
I'd rate them for use in the wet but not much else.

Any tests by the likes of Evo or Autocar tend to be very subjective I always think.
I'm not sure which test is being referred to or more importantly what cars were used ? but chucking a wide cross section of different tyres on a car that may have been designed around a specific brand and type of tyre doesn't strike me as the basis for an accurate test of a tyres abilities ?

[Nords]

You are spot on about the tests XPorker, however I don't have these goodyear F1s which I think you might be thinking about...



It is these (very PS2 like in tread pattern):



The M40 was in a straight line, which was so odd. I think there must have been something on the road, or the SMG 'box was a bit confused. I did drop from 5th to 3rd at 55-60 and floor it...

[SpineOnABap]

If the tyres were recently changed (I may have missed the mention of exactly when they were put on) then the SMG could have been 'confused' if you didn't do the SMG recalibration procedure that you should do when changing tyres (?)
(Handbook - changing tyres section).
Possibly....