CSL engine - advice sought!

[Matt62]

Hi! Some may know me from other forums, I race an E46 M3 V8 GTR. But I have an E46 M3 road-car. I considered the CSL but opted for an M3 spec'd up instead.

I've done the suspension, brakes etc and now have the bits I need to turn my engine into a CSL engine, I have a genuine CSL airbox, CSL ECU and wiring loom. This will be installed in a few weeks and the ECU re-mapped.

The question for you chaps is should I be looking for CSL cams as well or will a re-mapped and tweaked CSL ECU with standard M3 cams be sufficient to have similar power output ?

I suspect many of you have upgraded your CSL camshafts ? My experience, only in the race cars, is that with very high lift camshafts the bottom-end is severly sacrificed. How have people found upgraded camshafts? Should I just go for this instead perhaps ?

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated!

[DuncanR]

Sorry cant help Matt.... new engine under warranty !! Others will be along soon with their fourpennuth !!

[glendog74]

There was a rather long and tedious post about this sort of thing some time back :hahaha: :

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/csl-register/general/csl-technical-area/513787-seeking-csl-knowledge

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Are your running the S62 or S65 V8 in the E46 ?

With or without Vanos ?

Std or Higher lift Cams ?

OEM or Stand alone ECU ? Pectel/Motec/ KMS-Pi ~?

Reason for the questions is that if you needed V8
''Power'' for the E46 Race Car then why are you
not following suit with your Road Car if its all
about 'Power' increase ?

A standard V8 will be much easier to live with in a
Road Car than a screaming S54 that falls off high lift
cams at anything under 6,000 rpm.

Especially as the S65 is around the same weight
as the S54 and a little bit shorter.

Further, you already have the knowledge and
know how from the Race V8.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Matt62]

Thanks for your thoughts Gorilla.

It's a huge can of worms to stick an S62 in the E46 M3 !

To give you some idea it took us about 4 years to get it right in the race car. The engine in that car produces 570bhp and has had about £15k spent on it + £10k every season or two for an overhaul. It's had all major internal components upgraded.

Also, I'm not wanting that kind of power, even if I wanted 500bhp I would just supercharge the S54.

What I want is the CSL noise above anything else! A bit of extra power would be a benefit, but it's not the main reason. Just wondering if CSL cams would give me any benefit at all, but it's not esssential.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Matt62- I think BMW pulled off one of the
biggest Motorsport Illusions of all time with
the V8 M3 GTR ALMS 2000/1 Cars.

The point being that although the 'GTR'
shares the S62 Block, the Mader Mecachrom
in the GTR with its Flat Plane Crank special cams
and so on, let alone internals, Dry Sump etc, is at another
level to where S62/S65 M engines can only
dream and aspire to be.

The Red Bull / Renault V8 owes much to a BMW Block !!!

The Cross Plane Crank of the S62 is not user freindly
to high revs, and although it makes good torque the
S62 base engine at 245 Kg's v the 155 Kgs of the Mader V8
is only part of the story.

Still, CSL, bit more Cam on a road Going S54 is Ok,
but as you say, too agrressive and all your doing is
pushing the 'on' Cam Power band further up the
rev counter.

Not exactly what you want in a road car.

If you can find some cams within budget, then fine,
if not, then for a daily driven road car, I would
leave it as is, and just have the ECU remapped
accordingly.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Matt62]

Thanks for the info!! Much appreciated !

I think I'll leave the cams. I suspect BMW upgraded the cams in the CSL to help marketing with the 'max power' figure.

[Rutkowski]

Thanks for the info!! Much appreciated !

I think I'll leave the cams. I suspect BMW upgraded the cams in the CSL to help marketing with the 'max power' figure.

Hi Matt, welcome on this side! So you're the one who just bought it from ebay!! :thumbs: Congrats.

CSL engine is optimised for the larger volume of air that's being sucked in so intake and exhaust camshafts are longer duration. 280 in and 272 degrees out. Also, the exhaust valves are optimised too.

The lift remains the same at 11.5mm just the duration is a bit longer. If you're going to go for cams, go for Schrick 288 / 280 but stick with 11.5mm lift or CSL ones. It's worth it IMHO. I am hoping i'll achieve 380bhp with mods i am installing.

By the way - I am buying low milage CSL engine (£1500) right now so maybe just buy a second hand engine?

Good luck!

[Matt62]

Hi Rutkowski. I was hoping you may spot this thread, I remember you've some very specific experience in this area! Thanks very much for posting.

Yup, it was me that nabbed it on eBay! I managed to get him to end the auction very early as no-one had bid at that point.

Good point re the engine, I was thinking about getting a standard S54, just as a back-up engine, bearing in mind this road car will become a race car eventually, for the money they are going at now it's well worth it.

Thanks for your advice on the cams. I think I'll go for a remap and run the car for a bit first, see how it is and what it's producing, then go for those other mods/ CSL engine.

[NZ_M3]

The Red Bull / Renault V8 owes much to a BMW Block !!!

You sure about this???? In the GP2 perhaps (M62 and S62 based), but I don't think there's actually any commonality in design or hardware between the 2010 Redbull/Renault V8 and the BMW P60 motor or subsequent renditions.

Mecachrom does the assemblies for Renault F1 (a separate company to Renault) but they didn't design this motor, Renault F1 did (from my understanding BMW didn't share any input in this engine either).

The Cross Plane Crank of the S62 is not user freindly
to high revs, and although it makes good torque the
S62 base engine at 245 Kg's v the 155 Kgs of the Mader V8
is only part of the story.

Ferrari seems to do okay with Flat Plane Crank in their V8s ... I am of the opinion that it's simply a cost saving exercise on BMW's part to release V8s in cross plane crank. All their motorsport V8s are flat plane crank.


+1 about Rutkowski's post.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

NZ_M3-

The Mader development was carried over into
the Renault F1 Lump, although strictly speaking
its not a S62 Cast block as such.

All the development work that Mader carried
out on the S62 V8 Block project which they more or less
got for free when BMW dumped the project,
evolved into much of what Renault now run in F1.

No, it was not so much a cost consideration by
BMW, but the firing order of a Flat Plane Crank
V8 is different to a Cross Plane, and as such it
creates much more vibration which would have
to be dampened out for a Road based Car.

BMW missed a trick there, they should have released
a BMW M3 V8 but with a Flat Plane Crank, a
Transaxle, as they now run in the ALMS, and called
it a CSL, and at 130k plus, they would have been
queing up to buy, for sure.

Ferrari V8 to a point, get away with Flat Plane Crank
as the engine is in the rear, but on the Maserati V8,
basically same engine, except they revert back to a
Cross plane Crank, as the engine sits up front.

Listen to a proper M3 GTR just hitting the sweet spot
and there is no mistaking a Flat Plane Crank V8.

This is how to drive one-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2Q4MBAjL7Q

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Matt62]

Compare that to our GTR with the S62:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G509z0hctEc

p.s. this was a test day a couple of years ago with very worn rear tyres!

[NZ_M3]

Mr Gorilla

I don't know, still not convinced that there's a correlation between the BMW S62 (or P60 rendition) with the 2010 Renault F1 lump. That's about as credible as calling the M8 S70 V12 a dumbed down version of the McLaren F1 S70/2 V12 when Rosche himself have said they are completely different motors.

There's probably more commonalities between the S62, P60, S65 and P65 than a Renault F1 engine. To call lineage to it seem a little over fetched to me (you could then almost call all internal combustion engines having the same original lineage in that case). The fact of the matter is the 2010 engine is Renault design and Mecachrome assembled - it's not and never was an evolution of the BMW S62 (at least I can't find anything to back such a claim up). The GP2 motor was S62 derived and it is clearly well known.


I am aware of the issue and engineering differences between a flat plane crank V8 and cross plane crank V8 - I said it was a cost issue because BMW preferred a smoother road motor without added counter weights and engineering needed to balance out the secondary vibrations in the flat plane (which Ferrari have done quite successfully).

But yes you are correct, would have been superb if when they made the CSL they stuck the P62 in there with the flat plane crank :thumbs:


Great video comparison though!!

[DazBlackCSL]

[DuncanR]

You really should have gone to bed Dazza !!!

Great vid Gorilla, cracking NS familiarisation one !