Sport Button thoughts.

[shimmy]

........

When the Sport Button is engaged, the
ECU alters the amount of fueling,
so that more fuel is allowed into the injectors.

Thus at equal throttle openings, but with ''Sport mode''
''on'', the engine gets more

........

The Gorilla.

I just took this to mean that the only change with sport on and off is fueling

[_Nathan_]

I naively thought the pedal detent was only there for kickdown.

[alexk]

I naively thought the pedal detent was only there for kickdown.

I don't think the pedal detent is giving extra throttle travel.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Shimmy- after reading it back the way
I stated, I can see how it might appear
as if I was saying,-

''Press Sport Button, fueling is increased,
end of.

Which is not the case.

While the CSL Adaptive fuelling should
prevent any 'lean' burn, I believe that
the CSL also has its fuelling increased on
'Sport Mode' as a double precaution
against running lean.

Limp Mode, is fine, but at 8000 rpm
the damage would already done.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[cantfind1]

mmm interesting thread chaps.

One thing that hasn t been mentioned is the Idle control valve. In normal mode ICV provides the air to the cylinders up to about 2000 rpm I believe? Could be more.

However in sport mode the throttle bodies open earlier somewhere around 1500 I believe, ie the throttle bodies blend with the ICV air earlier.

So if you are finding that you car is a little jerky or hesitant in normal mode but when you are in sport it is a little smoother taking off from low rpm, then it is most likely caused by a sticky ICV. They have a habit of becoming clogged with carbon and not moving as freely as they should.

Instead of buying a new part for 200 odd quid, take yours off stick it in an ultrasonic cleaner and see how much of an improvement that makes to smoothness at low rpm. The ICV rarely fails, but the benefits of a clean are immense.

Other than that all the above is correct throttle bodies just open wider in sport mode for a given pedal displacement and flap opens earlier. Fueling is the same for throttle body angles in normal and sport mode, there are no separate fuel maps for sport mode in the MSS54HP ecu.

[cantfind1]

Hi,

Shimmy- after reading it back the way
I stated, I can see how it might appear
as if I was saying,-

''Press Sport Button, fueling is increased,
end of.

Which is not the case.

While the CSL Adaptive fuelling should
prevent any 'lean' burn, I believe that
the CSL also has its fuelling increased on
'Sport Mode' as a double precaution
against running lean.

Limp Mode, is fine, but at 8000 rpm
the damage would already done.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

AFR's in normal mode and sport mode are identical, there is no separate fueling for sport mode.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Cantfind1- quote-

''AFR's in normal mode and sport mode are identical, there is no separate fueling for sport mode.''

Sorry but I disagree.

The ''AFR'S'' [Air Fuel Ratio] will be the same at
''0'' of course, and at WOT [Wide Open Throttle].''

I maintain that when Sport Button is engaged on a CSL
then the fueling is altered.

Std M3 then no, as it relies on the MAF.

When you alter the throttle angle then by definition
you will move the Cam quicker in the mid range
on a varibale cam engine.

Retarding the Cam quickly to the maximuim Cam Retard
postion on a 'Cat' car is desired so that HC [Hydro Carbons]
and NOx feedgas emissions leaving the exhaust are minmised.
[Part why the CSL was not sold in Countries with High Emission
requirements, USA etc]

Inatke Manifold Pressure increases as the Cam is retarded due
to less fresh air being inducted during the intake stroke,

The O2 [Lam] sensors are not instantaneous and are now
having to respond even quicker than with Sport off.
So any original hesitation is increased.

Therefore to compensate for any hesitation the fueling
is altered.


Below is extract on from Alpha N type engine management.-
''
MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor sees a given load, the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) sees a corresponding throttle angle, the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor) sees a normal operating temperature, and the O2 (Oxygen) sensor is saying the engine is too rich, the ECU will comply…to a point. When the ECU has leaned out the AFR (Air/Fuel Ratio) beyond what the programming claims is an acceptable range, the ECU will go into Open Loop and ignore the O2 sensor. It then reverts to Look-Up tables for its source of information. At this point, mileage will invariably go down, and often a trouble code is set.

Consider the conditions needed for the ECU to accept lean fuel commands. If the engine is warmer than it actually is, the ECU will accept leaner. If the engine is under less of a load, the ECU will want to deliver less fuel. If the incoming air is hotter, the ECU will accept lean commands more readily. If MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor equipped, less air entering the engine will require less fuel.''




I still maintain that on the CSL pressing the Sport
button does alter the fueling.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[cantfind1]

Hi,

Cantfind1- quote-

''AFR's in normal mode and sport mode are identical, there is no separate fueling for sport mode.''

Sorry but I disagree.

The ''AFR'S'' [Air Fuel Ratio] will be the same at
''0'' of course, and at WOT [Wide Open Throttle].''

I maintain that when Sport Button is engaged on a CSL
then the fueling is altered.

Std M3 then no, as it relies on the MAF.

When you alter the throttle angle then by definition
you will move the Cam quicker in the mid range
on a varibale cam engine.

Retarding the Cam quickly to the maximuim Cam Retard
postion on a 'Cat' car is desired so that HC [Hydro Carbons]
and NOx feedgas emissions leaving the exhaust are minmised.
[Part why the CSL was not sold in Countries with High Emission
requirements, USA etc]

Inatke Manifold Pressure increases as the Cam is retarded due
to less fresh air being inducted during the intake stroke,

The O2 [Lam] sensors are not instantaneous and are now
having to respond even quicker than with Sport off.
So any original hesitation is increased.

Therefore to compensate for any hesitation the fueling
is altered.


Below is extract on from Alpha N type engine management.-
''
MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor sees a given load, the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) sees a corresponding throttle angle, the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor) sees a normal operating temperature, and the O2 (Oxygen) sensor is saying the engine is too rich, the ECU will comply…to a point. When the ECU has leaned out the AFR (Air/Fuel Ratio) beyond what the programming claims is an acceptable range, the ECU will go into Open Loop and ignore the O2 sensor. It then reverts to Look-Up tables for its source of information. At this point, mileage will invariably go down, and often a trouble code is set.

Consider the conditions needed for the ECU to accept lean fuel commands. If the engine is warmer than it actually is, the ECU will accept leaner. If the engine is under less of a load, the ECU will want to deliver less fuel. If the incoming air is hotter, the ECU will accept lean commands more readily. If MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor equipped, less air entering the engine will require less fuel.''




I still maintain that on the CSL pressing the Sport
button does alter the fueling.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Agree to disagree mate. the throttle opening in normal mode is the same as in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position. Its just that in sport mode that given throttle opening happens with less pedal travel.

Sport mode is basically the same as fitting a sprint booster. Thats it. There are no different maps for sport mode. ie fuelling is the same it just happens at less pedal angle in sport mode.

No need to complicate things as it is very simple.

[glendog74]

:whistle:

[3wheels3]

...in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position...

So the flap, assuming it's working, opening 3000rpm earlier makes no difference? I'm sure you can feel a difference :bigcry: especially when not in sport mode and it opens up at 6000rpm in which case 5000rpm there should be a difference between sport and unsport modes?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Cantfind1- Quote-

''Agree to disagree mate. the throttle opening in normal mode is the same as in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position. Its just that in sport mode that given throttle opening happens with less pedal travel.'' End Quote.

For the Throttle Butterflies to open quicker in
the mid range for the same throttle
pedal angle input, which the Throttle Angle change does,
then Greater air volume must be required to give more
revs over the same time period.

Any engine requires more air and fuel to make
more revs over a given period.

ie] Sport Off and then Sport On.

Air velocity [so volume] to a point, must in the first part increase
as the throttle Butterfly has opended further with
Sport on than with Sport off, for the same throttle
pedal distance travelled.

This process requires a greater air volume for
the same duration which in turn
requires more fuel.

There is no free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

Gorilla bravo :thumbs:

[shimmy]

Gorilla bravo :thumbs:

I never trust a man who can't even do [/quote] button correct :thumbs:, he can't be technically capable at all!

[glendog74]

I never trust a man who can't even do quote button correct :thumbs:, he can't be technically capable at all!

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Cantfind1- Quote-

''Agree to disagree mate. the throttle opening in normal mode is the same as in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position. Its just that in sport mode that given throttle opening happens with less pedal travel.'' End Quote.

For the Throttle Butterflies to open quicker in
the mid range for the same throttle
pedal angle input, which the Throttle Angle change does,
then Greater air volume must be required to give more
revs over the same time period.

Any engine requires more air and fuel to make
more revs over a given period.

ie] Sport Off and then Sport On.

Air velocity [so volume] to a point, must in the first part increase
as the throttle Butterfly has opended further with
Sport on than with Sport off, for the same throttle
pedal distance travelled.

This process requires a greater air volume for
the same duration which in turn
requires more fuel.

There is no free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

But throttle opening % will yield same AFR whether sport on/off. The sport button just changes the :to: relation between pedal and throttle.

Cause and effect- obv throttle open wider changes fuelling, but is that not merely an effect of the cause- which is pedal % relationship to throttle %.

The fuelling is merely altered because the throttle has opened further. Regardless of whether you pressed pedal further or pressed sport.

I personally do not think it changers the fuelling directly, fuelling changes because of throttle opening wider/quicker.

I think the only alteration is in the pedal signals and that alone.

but if the primate can show me BMW techincal data to suggest otherwise then i stand corrected

Not an arguement, just discussion