Sport Button thoughts.

[cantfind1]

But throttle opening % will yield same AFR whether sport on/off. The sport button just changes the :to: relation between pedal and throttle.

Cause and effect- obv throttle open wider changes fuelling, but is that not merely an effect of the cause- which is pedal % relationship to throttle %.

The fuelling is merely altered because the throttle has opened further. Regardless of whether you pressed pedal further or pressed sport.

I personally do not think it changers the fuelling directly, fuelling changes because of throttle opening wider/quicker.

I think the only alteration is in the pedal signals and that alone.

but if the primate can show me BMW techincal data to suggest otherwise then i stand corrected

Not an arguement, just discussion

Got it in one mate.

[glendog74]

I like goats.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Lawsy- No, sorry I do not have access to
any BMW Technical Papers on this.

I understand that your point is that the
AFR is linear in that the % ratio of air to fuel
is constant over the duration of the throttle
opening.

ie] the throttle butterflies travel the same distance
regardless if the Sport Button is on or off.

If I understand what your saying correctly
is that with Sport Button on the
same amount of fuel and air is used in
a shorter period ?

My Point is that with the Sport Button on
the throttle butterflies travel
a greater distance for the same % of pedal input
and as such the fueling has to be increased
to compensate for this.

This requires an increase in air velocity as the air
volume required has to be of a greater charge/volume
than if the Sport Button was off.

An increase in air velocity charge/volume will
also require and increase in fuel.

As the Standard M3 uses a Blade type MAF then
its fueling is via air volume /flow sensor, no matter
if the Sport button is on or off.

A Standard M3 is still subjected to the same
throttle angle change when sport is engaged
but is no where near as on/off to drive as a CSL.

20 or so BHP would not make that sort of difference
but an increase in fueling will.

As you know CSL MSS54 ECU does not use a MAF it uses load
with a TPS and a pressure sensor, and is also
why I believe that the fueling is altered on the
CSL.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[outnumbered]

I think you're nearly both saying the same thing, but I must be missing some nuance of where you might be disagreeing.

My understanding is that the throttle pedal controls one thing directly, which is the amount of air getting into the engine via the throttle butterflies.

The ECU is always trying to maintain the most efficient air/fuel ratio, so will alter the amount of fuel injected to try to exactly match the amount of air going in (along with input from other sensors like engine temp to get it right).

In sport mode, the throttle butterflies open wider for a given amount of pedal travel. Hence more air in, hence more fuel in.

[glendog74]

My head hurts :banghead:

[Bounce]

My head hurts :banghead:

Just press the button and drive the fookin thing.:hahaha::hahaha:

[glendog74]

Just press the button and drive the fookin thing.:hahaha::hahaha:

+1 :thumbs:

This is all Shimmy's fault!

[AlexGTT]

+1 :thumbs:

This is all Shimmy's fault!

He's got a lot to answer for on this forum!:hahaha:

Now.........................where's that outrageous pink cocktail gone with the f*ck off big umbrella.:beer::smokin: Back to the sun.

[Bounce]

He's got a lot to answer for on this forum!:hahaha:

Now.........................where's that outrageous pink cocktail gone with the f*ck off big umbrella.:beer::smokin: Back to the sun.

Bring the umbrella home with you as a prezzi for Robert.:whistle:

[glendog74]

Bring the umbrella home with you as a prezzi for Robert.:whistle:

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::thumbs:

[AlexGTT]

Bring the umbrella home with you as a prezzi for Robert.:whistle:

Will do. One little pink cocktail umbrella for Rob.:gayfight: Check.

But if it puts my luggage overweight on the flight home I'm giving him an invoice with it as well.:birdman::hahaha:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Hope to run a test this week
regarding the Sport Button.

Just waiting for some new TB's rubber
connectors as I had some with small
splits it.

It seems as if my understanding that the fueling
is altered with 'Sport On' is incorrect.

To check, I am going to disconnect the Stepper
Motor Throttle linkage, it just pulls off, so that I can open
the TB's manually.

Then with std settings, engine warm, I am going
to open the TB's very quickly manually to see if engine
revs are maintained and response is
constant to fast undulating throttle inputs.

Then repeat this with Sport On.

If its the same engine response in both cases than I am
incorrect, if the engine repeatdly chokes
or stops in std mode but is ok in sport mode
then it ain't just throttle angle that is changed.

Since this discussion started I have also looked
at the Throttle inputs on the E30 /S54 which is
a manual throttle, ie good old cable, and if you
try and arrange it so that the throttle pedal
input is linear to the throttle angle, ie] 1-1,
then it is almost impossible to get the engine
to tickover on anything less than about 1800 rpm.
[engine ticks over at 850 rpm]
Should add that this engine has no cold air
valve etc.

So I am having difficulty in understanding how the
throttle angle with sport on can alter so quickly up to 3000 rpm
when the cold Intake valve is still feeding an
'Emissions' engine up to and around 1500/1800 rpm.

Fuel consumption should be the same with Sport on or Off
if its only the mid throttle angle that alters ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

.

[_Nathan_]

If you are on a standard ecu I suspect that test will lead to limp home or simething as requested throttle angle won't meet actual throttle angle.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Nathan- I am hoping not, as although
Car runs the std MSS54 CSL ECU,
it runs with no Vanos.

Do the test with car in 'N' and then
hopefully limp Mode will not come into play.

I was talking to a Guy a couple of weeks ago
who had some of the Dinan 55mm TB's.

He said that on a stock engine making around
320/330 bhp that there was no difference
which was interesting.

They have a full blown Race S54 with all
the toys running Pectel making around
the 400 bhp mark and the 55mm TB's made
a slight difference right at the peak of the
Cam lift, but not much else.

They run the infamous MS S54 Header on
this engine, which they believe gives
around 3/5 BHP for close on 7k euro.

Its runs no Vanos due to the Cam lift and
they switched back to a Manual throttle at the
start of this year.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I am starting to wonder if the
Siemems MSS54 CSL ECU has
more than just fuel adaptation
when sport button is pressed.

Has anybody ever had a chance
to scan through the
Software to see if there is any sort
of default fuel trim for Sport ?

Reason being that if the Sport
button alters the throttle angle
to pedal angle ratio to the figures
as posted for a std E46 M3 [MAF],
then you would be as fast with
shiffting at 3/4 throttle as at WOT
with Sport on.

Very hard to change at a given 3/4 throttle
position though, much eaiser for your right foot
to goe all the way.

Yet the very idea of short shifting at
say 6500 / 7000 rpm seems alien to
a sport mode configuration.

My static test was a Primate Breakfast's
so will enlist a chimp to assist this
weekend.

Its also interesting to see what
KMS offer with a Pectel SQ6M for the/65/85
stepper motors.

They convert back to a Throttle cable.

Regards,

The Gorilla.