Worried with those subframe stories

[MCSL]

Take back what I said about the corrosion....turns out its 12 years.

...although, it sounds a bit grey, 12 yrs on the new floor, or 12 years since the car was first registered? Sounds more like the latter which doesn't help much. I guess it means 04 cars that have had new floors have their inherent cover till 2016, but 03 cars (which had just 6 years corrosion warranty originally) have no corrosion cover on the new floor. Gee, BMW thought that one thorough well. Hopefully common sense would prevail and we would still be looked after if they all start rusting.

Cheers. I hope it does have at least a 3 yr warranty...

[shane@mbtech]

If the repair was carried out under warranty foc then the repair itself carries no warranty, other than quality of work. If it's an inherent fault which they are aware of and they are aware, as they repaired it for said fault. Then if they refuse take it to court, as it's obviously a design flaw. They can't have it both ways surely?

By fixing it originally they accept there is a flaw, so how can they then decide to fob you off.

It's not a corrosion warranty repair in reality, it's a repair because of a design flaw.

[Alx007]

Hello everyone!

First, I wish you a happy new year to you and your relatives!

Like AlexK, after inquiring with BMW Switzerland, I had a reply stating that the problem does not exist and that the subframe cracks and TIS number that I mentionned do not reflect the reality of the situation...

This is very frustrating and I confess that I am quite upset with BMW despite being a fan for more than 30 years and having driven their cars for about 18 years. :moan:

I sometimes consider selling the CSL and look for a Porsche or a Ferrari. ...unless I decide to do the foam injections myself.

Cheers everyone,
Alex

[LeinsCSL]

It's very annoying when BMW carry on like this Alex. However, don't let it put you off what is a great car!

So if you're still in love with your CSL, my advice would be to get it sorted yourself so you shouldn't have the worry going forward. I believe if you do decide to sell it on down the line then the preventative work should make it even easier to find a buyer. Even though BMW in Switzerland won't acknowledge the issue, a lot of buyers probably now do!

[Alx007]

It's very annoying when BMW carry on like this Alex. However, don't let it put you off what is a great car!

So if you're still in love with your CSL, my advice would be to get it sorted yourself so you shouldn't have the worry going forward. I believe if you do decide to sell it on down the line then the preventative work should make it even easier to find a buyer. Even though BMW in Switzerland won't acknowledge the issue, a lot of buyers probably now do!

Hi Leins,

Thank you for your kind words.

Not only am I still in love with my CSL, I also find this community great and helpful.

I just don't recognise myself in BMWs nowadays.

They have become poseur machines with ugly designs and emotionless engines. I feel a bit like Alfa Romeo fans in the 80's...

I would also fancy a Ferrari F355 or a Porsche 993 and these issues just make me want to make the move.

Regards,
Alex

[LeinsCSL]

Yep that happens me in the winter too. I've been obsessed with early 3.3 930 Turbos for at least a week now!

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I was under the impression that the work
relating to the ''design flaw'' was / is being
carried out as act of ''Goodwill'' and that
BMW introduced a self imposed deadline
for their own Good will gesture in this instance.

I would have thought that an act of ''Goodwil''l
is just that, and it comes with no future
liability, either implied or otherwise.
No further Warranty on what is undertaken
as it was not done under Warranty or as a Model recall.

ie ] What you get is what you got.

So until a Court Case ensues whereby its Ruled
that the design is flawed and BMW are responsible
then that is it.
[Very Costly to prove even given the evidence to date]

Hence why I think BMW CH are saying basically
''Fuck Off'' as there is no official Euro Warranty Recall
or Model Recall for E46 Rear Subframe mounts.

The opportunity to bring BMW to the table has
somewhat been missed in that some owners in mainland
Europe should have brought/sent there car[s] to
the UK for repair, which really would have focused
BMW on the matter to hand, especially given
the fact that BMW UK had been sanctioned to
undertake ''goodwill'' repairs on a issue that
other BMW Franchises deny the existance of.

Nothing like European ''Corporate Contridiction'' for
getting the Brussels Quango's all fucked up, even
better when it involves one of the inner circle.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[AlexGTT]

Just go full weld in cage. Job done.

Shane, I think even with a full cage, long term the problem would still be there.

There's only one solution and as my car doesn't yet have cracks but is beyond the 10 years "goodwill" that seems available from BMW. Having said that, I wouldn't let BMW loose on my car with foam or a replacement floor.

So, I'm going to remove the sub frame, access the bush mounting points, fabricate dowels as Gorilla has mentioned to bridge the floor skins. With welded in dowels, studs fixed and passing though the dowels for bush mounting. A lot of work but I believe the only solution, keeping some sort of originality to the visible floor. Rust prevention will be the concern.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

AlexGTT- I think you could achieve the
same results with less work.

On a Car that has not suffered any metal
fatigue then a 12.9 HT Bolt that has a fixing
point on the top when bolted up from underneath
[ie welded plate recessed into the boot floor]
would act as the dowel, then an alloy collar
fitted over the bolt that sits into the correct
sized recess in the subframe bush when tightened
up could act as the dowel peg.

The existing boot floor fixing point is 'spot' welded at the bottom
skin and then the metal tube extends upto the upper
skin with another flange, where its spot welded
to the upper skin.

The tube is to accommodate bolt length.

So by continuing the hole thru into the upper boot
floor skin you can weld in a fixing point below the
boot skin and cover with an access plate etc.

Nice thick plate welded at the top would allow the bolt to be fitted
from below as norma,l and then fit a large M12 flange bolt
tightened from the top, with or without access plate [if recessed]


Its basically what Merc did on the 190 etc, but there
access plates on the upper boot skin are tack
welded on, and sealed, more to stop condensation
causing corrosion.

This would give you a HT 12.9 Bolt fixed at top
and bottom with a alloy collar fitted over to
create the dowel/peg for the recess into the
alloy centre of the subframe bush.

Shear factor on a m12 12.9 bolt is way
above any lateral forces or spot loads
that the CSL will ever generate.

Could either make own subframe rear bushes with
shore 90 or 95 poly, [or delrin ?] and then have inserts made
to suit the new dowels/pegs, or if there is enough
meat on the std E46 bush insert, re-drill them and
use them for a little compliance on a Road / Track car.

I spent a long time fucking around under the
E46 CSL rear boot area cut much away and learnt that
BMW basically got it wrong and the design is
flawed regarding rear subframe mounts.

Given that the standard look was lost long ago
I have gone a different route to that above, but its a gamble,
so time will tell if the Primate's thinking outside the
box, is in the pound seats or not as the case may be.
When its finished and works will give the SP
and few pics.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Alx007]

Hi Gorilla,

That looks interesting.

Any pictures of this modification?

I am quite frustrated at the moment.

I think I'll end up doing the foam injections myself or just selling the car...

[alexk]

Alex dont be so frustrated.

Just drive the bloody thing and enjoy it.
Life is short.

[Alx007]

Alex dont be so frustrated.

Just drive the bloody thing and enjoy it.
Life is short.

True... :beer:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Alx- I do not have pics of what I am
suggesting only the direction I have
gone, which is far away from stock/std.

There are several ways the rear subframe
/ subframe mounts can be altered, without
taking out the boot floor section which
BMW seemed to favour.

Its the rear mounting points where all the
issues first stem from, as the front [rearsubframe] mounts
are weled into the 'monocouque beam section'
fabricated into the shell.
Its the same section where the seat belts are
fixed to on the strap bottoms etc, and where
BMW welded in massive 'damping plate' for the
diff etc.

I will see if I can take a picture or two,
as the direction I have gone does now allow
better visual of the existing rear subframe mounts
which I am no longer using.

Regards,

The Gorilla

[AlexGTT]

Hi,

AlexGTT- I think you could achieve the
same results with less work.

On a Car that has not suffered any metal
fatigue then a 12.9 HT Bolt that has a fixing
point on the top when bolted up from underneath
[ie welded plate recessed into the boot floor]
would act as the dowel, then an alloy collar
fitted over the bolt that sits into the correct
sized recess in the subframe bush when tightened
up could act as the dowel peg.

The existing boot floor fixing point is 'spot' welded at the bottom
skin and then the metal tube extends upto the upper
skin with another flange, where its spot welded
to the upper skin.

The tube is to accommodate bolt length.

So by continuing the hole thru into the upper boot
floor skin you can weld in a fixing point below the
boot skin and cover with an access plate etc.

Nice thick plate welded at the top would allow the bolt to be fitted
from below as norma,l and then fit a large M12 flange bolt
tightened from the top, with or without access plate [if recessed]


Its basically what Merc did on the 190 etc, but there
access plates on the upper boot skin are tack
welded on, and sealed, more to stop condensation
causing corrosion.

This would give you a HT 12.9 Bolt fixed at top
and bottom with a alloy collar fitted over to
create the dowel/peg for the recess into the
alloy centre of the subframe bush.

Shear factor on a m12 12.9 bolt is way
above any lateral forces or spot loads
that the CSL will ever generate.

Could either make own subframe rear bushes with
shore 90 or 95 poly, [or delrin ?] and then have inserts made
to suit the new dowels/pegs, or if there is enough
meat on the std E46 bush insert, re-drill them and
use them for a little compliance on a Road / Track car.

I spent a long time fucking around under the
E46 CSL rear boot area cut much away and learnt that
BMW basically got it wrong and the design is
flawed regarding rear subframe mounts.

Given that the standard look was lost long ago
I have gone a different route to that above, but its a gamble,
so time will tell if the Primate's thinking outside the
box, is in the pound seats or not as the case may be.
When its finished and works will give the SP
and few pics.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Thanks Gorilla, I'm liking the sound of that. Anything to make the fix easier! I'll post pics, whatever the solution.

Hi Gorilla,

That looks interesting.

Any pictures of this modification?

I am quite frustrated at the moment.

I think I'll end up doing the foam injections myself or just selling the car...

Alx, don't just throw the foam in. I'm convinced, as others, this is a bad idea.

[Rick H]

I have to admit to not fully understanding the proposed solution - but two things to be aware of are local bearing failure (i.e. tearing of thin steel around the bolt) and block shear failure if the bolt is close to an unstiffened edge (think pages in a ring binder). These two modes of failure should be greater than the shear capacity of the M12 bolt to allow it to reach full capacity. Welded-in bosses will help this - but only locally, they may just transfer the problem elsewhere, it's difficult to judge without seeing a sketch.