The definitive suspension thread

[trackm3_csl]

I'm not building a race car, so I don't want something that is going to detract from the current well balanced compromise. That may be the case with Intrax, but that has not been my experience of quality suspension. There may be some drop off compared to new, but as stated, I'm not competing against other cars where every tenth counts, I just want something that will give a good ride / handling compromise at the 'ring and on the road and that isn't going to start knocking every few months.

The only signs of wear that the H&Rs are showing is some spring sag, now given how old they are, that is pretty good going. The damping may be way off what they were when new, but I have only experienced what they're like now (which feels compliant, but could do with a bit more roll control).

Mike, you quoted this 'As we all know, the key to a fast Cesil is being able to carry more corner speed than almost anything else' This quote gives me the feeling you want something that performs well ? so don't rule out a proper fast track-race coilover just add a progressive spring and it will be a good road setup also ?

[shimmy]

So why not tell us what you do have and what you think?

Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post :-D

You don't care.

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post :-D

You don't care.

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[Mike RT4]

I'm no expert and most are not .. Hence always better to leave anything like suspension to the people that know.

So my experience with mine over a 4/5 year period was trial and error, started with a KW V3 kit way way back in the early days, fortunately for me I'm friends with the KW guys from my racing in the CSL cup season in 09 so they helped me with my road car set up all through those years.

To be honest Mitch (ex KW now was a gent and knew his onions)

V3 kit got exchanged for a clubsport kit after about 2 years, thought I needed something harder and more 'race' track focused to get quicker ! Learnt that's not how you do go quicker the expensive way !!

But that's part if the fun and learning curve I guess. So from clubsports I went to a bespoke built race set up, stupid really as I was racing and used the car daily, but again my reasons for this was out of curiosity and also using my road car on track day before test day to get a feel for the circuit and also as the the race car was running almost the same set up it gave me some guidelines (little I agree but everything helped as a novice racer)

So what I learned in those years was, no matter how many different set up's, countless changes of springs and rates and tweaking and three versions of kits, I was the quickest and happiest on the original V3 kit.

For what I needed the car for, as in it was a daily driver and for 09 a heavy tracked car, 3 ring trips a year and lots of miles on the road.

The V3 was good enough but also simple enough to tweak and was a good compromise as a slightly better kit than OEM and also not as harsh for the road.

If your looking for speed on track, lots of time behind the wheel and on the track of your choice to learn the corners etc is how you really get quicker and build your confidence, not teaching you to suck eggs at all just my experience of various suspension changes on a CSL over many years.

If I have another CSL will do V3 and brakes and spacers, mainly for overall look and the lack of fade on track and slightly more progressive solid feel on track that the V3 and AP kits give you.

Tuition with a really experienced racer is an eye opener, Sean Edwards jumped in my CSL back in 09 and spent a few days with me and fook me what he could do with my then Standard CSL was impressive, needless to say no matter what I had on the car or what I spent, Sean would of run rings round me in a std car with no mods.

All down to what you want out of the car and what your trying to achieve I guess, I'm glad I tried it for myself rather than just taking advice as we are all different and what works for one may not for another.

Keep suspension simple unless your an expert or one handy each time you go out as the set up is key to getting the best out of it and like it's been said this differs between tracks and peoples driving style and also what rubber you have on each corner.

I tried all the spring rates and different set ups, toe in, out etc etc over those years on track and off and I'm sooo glad I'm not in that vortex anymore as you always seem to be chasing your tail.

Fast forward to my year in the GT3 997, the only thing that made me quicker on track and more confident with the car was tuition with a Cup Car racer and ex rallycross driver, again all about seat time in car and track, GT3 was totally std but felt like a totally different car by the time I sold it.

Hi Daz,
That is exactly the kind of real world experience I was seeking, many thanks for taking the time to write all that .

[glendog74]

Like Dazza above, I have tried a couple of setups by trial and error whilst learning the car more through track days and trips to the Nürburgring.

Initially using the standard car Sachs suspension on road and my early Ring driving, I found it perfect for my ability at that time.

However, as my speed on track increased I was finding the lack of adjustment with the OEM suspension limiting and thus fitted Turner adjustable top mounts which certainly helped reduce tyre wear resulting from track driving. To be fair this setup is probably all most would ever need for road/track use as The Primate mentions although I did find I was pushing the roll limits of the car on certain tracks such as Spa.

Ultimately I wanted a step up in suspension performance to retain better car body control so like Dazza opted for the KW Clubsport setup in 2009. I have used this setup since and have to say it is perfect for me with a little tweak between road and track setting being the only fiddling required. I believe the latest version has an easy single adjuster rather than the faff with Allen keys which I have with my kit.

The great thing about the KW Clubsport setup apart from the improvement over OEM is that they adopt the same strut/spring arrangement at the rear rather than the coil overs of other kits and the have the added bonus of lowering the car a little over OEM (which sits too high aesthetically IMHO).

I have been totally happy with my KWs and other CSLR members and many passengers have commented on how well the car rides when on track.

:supz::supz::supz:

[Mike RT4]

Hi,

The other Big aspect is personal driving
styles, one likes what another dislikes and so
on.

I personally like a Car with Oversteer dialled
in at the start so the deeper in you go,
the more neutral it gets, others would hate it.

There never has been nor will there ever
be a Suspension for both worlds, Road and
Track, and the more adjustability your Track /Race
suspension has the more you start killing
it everytime you drive on the road, and nice
compliant road suspension wanders and rolls
way to much on Race Track Asphalt, where suspension loads
and lateral G Forces want to rip out the std bushings
as quickly as possible.

No free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Danny,
That is most certainly true about roundy roundy tracks, where race-car style spring and damper rates would wipe the floor with a road biased set up. Fortunately, I'm not looking for that kind of suspension for the CSL, as although I do use it for the occasional UK track day, the Cossie is far more suited for that kind of track work.

For the CSL I'm trying to find a good suspension set up that will work at the 'ring and due to the bumps that this circuit has, a more road biased set-up actually works quite well, hence the research.

I also would ideally like to avoid multi-adjustable suspension for the reasons you and Daz mention, as you can just end up chasing your tail round and round. The lack of adjustment on the CSL has not been missed - its actually nice to only have tyre temps / pressures to worry about (and with the Cups, you just seem to drop them to 26psi and then forget about them until it is time to drive home LOL) .

I'm not chasing times - just looking for something that will compliment the CSL's chassis .

[Mike RT4]

Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post :-D

You don't care.

Ah, I assume you got the Intrax in the end LOL.

Oout of curiosity, what is it you dislike about the Nitrons?

[glendog74]

Like Dazza above, I have tried a couple of setups by trial and error whilst learning the car more through track days and trips to the Nürburgring.

Initially using the standard car Sachs suspension on road and my early Ring driving, I found it perfect for my ability at that time.

However, as my speed on track increased I was finding the lack of adjustment with the OEM suspension limiting and thus fitted Turner adjustable top mounts which certainly helped reduce tyre wear resulting from track driving. To be fair this setup is probably all most would ever need for road/track use as The Primate mentions although I did find I was pushing the roll limits of the car on certain tracks such as Spa.

Ultimately I wanted a step up in suspension performance to retain better car body control so like Dazza opted for the KW Clubsport setup in 2009. I have used this setup since and have to say it is perfect for me with a little tweak between road and track setting being the only fiddling required. I believe the latest version has an easy single adjuster rather than the faff with Allen keys which I have with my kit.

The great thing about the KW Clubsport setup apart from the improvement over OEM is that they adopt the same strut/spring arrangement at the rear rather than the coil overs of other kits and the have the added bonus of lowering the car a little over OEM (which sits too high aesthetically IMHO).

I have been totally happy with my KWs and other CSLR members and many passengers have commented on how well the car rides when on track.

:supz::supz::supz:

KW Clubsport settings on this thread:

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/csl-register/general/csl-technical-area/513021-kw-clubsport-kit-factory-settings

:-D

[Mike RT4]

KW Clubsport settings on this thread:

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/csl-register/general/csl-technical-area/513021-kw-clubsport-kit-factory-settings

:-D

Many thanks .

How do you find it on the road and do you have the KW standard spring rates or have you changed them?

[DazBlackCSL]

Hi Daz,
That is exactly the kind of real world experience I was seeking, many thanks for taking the time to write all that .

No Probs dude ;-)

Like you said it sounds like your looking for what ultimately I really needed and enjoyed, a better set up than OEM but not for chasing times, dial in and go, sort tyres / pressures etc in the mix .. And at the end of the day have an enjoyable spirited drive home without losing your teeth.

For me the V3 kit is exactly that mix, the new kits now have a really nice simple adjustment, like Rob says, rather than the fiddly set up I had ( I'm lazy too ) lol

Both rob and myself had the privilege of having the kits fitted at the HQ at KW Germany, so no better set up possible. Rob's Clubsport is perfect for him as he doesn't need it a daily and only does track days and ring trips, mine at the time was that plus daily so v3 is the better option.

Clubsport is a good kit just depends what you need it for.

And the added bonus of how they are built in house means they stand up to the test of time better than others, salt, dust, rain etc just do some research to see what I mean, the coating on them are more hard wearing and don't need as much ( re building ) if looked after as in serviced and checked by an expert.

[alexk]

Mike, I concur with Danny.
What you want to do and what you like are very important factors.

I personally upgraded my suspension because I think I came close to the limits of the OEM suspension and it was becoming dangerous.

I run as you maybe know TTX 4-way race dampers.
Front spring rate is 130N/mm and rear 80N/mm.
Most people will say they are too hard.
I find them fantastic for the use that I am doing.
You need to have guts to drive fast in Autobahnen with many bumps. I found myself flying with 200+ km/h (hair getting whiter et cetera).
More info here -> https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/c...kii-ttx40-mkii

[shimmy]

Ah, I assume you got the Intrax in the end LOL.

Oout of curiosity, what is it you dislike about the Nitrons?

Lack of development. They've been trying to get E46 to work for 4 years since LeonB had the kit and still it doesn't seem to be valves/sized correctly.

Had the 1k2 since 2008 I think. Had two rebuilds/services and also had them rebooked to Steel from Aluminium as the Alu corrodes/reascts and snaps eventually. This year will go to Black Mambo coating as the Stella also rust eventually which can seize the front dampers.

I had the Nitron 4 way and they were pants as adjustment was all over e shop once you started to move them. Never even got close to having them work as well as the 1k2.

I had Bealo's car for a while and I thought the KW Clubsport were good we'll built units although never drove them on track.

What I have noticed about the Intrax is that they have fantastic adjustment and work across the FULL range meaning I guess they have been sized and vases well as the single adjuster does 2 ways. They ride kerbs fantastically and on my set up seem to make the car feel very planted at all times. I think those that have been in my car mostly comment how stable the car feels (and how sweaty it smells)

I however do chase times and I think for the money the best track weapons are the Black Titanium Intrax 1k2. Service every two winters.

[Mike RT4]

Mike, I concur with Danny.
What you want to do and what you like are very important factors.

I personally upgraded my suspension because I think I came close to the limits of the OEM suspension and it was becoming dangerous.

I run as you maybe know TTX 4-way race dampers.
Front spring rate is 130N/mm and rear 80N/mm.
Most people will say they are too hard.
I find them fantastic for the use that I am doing.
You need to have guts to drive fast in Autobahnen with many bumps. I found myself flying with 200+ km/h (hair getting whiter et cetera).
More info here -> https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/c...kii-ttx40-mkii

That sounds like a race set up, which I think would be way too hard for the 'ring - 130N/mm is over 740lb and 80N/mm is 456lb. As an idea, I run only 80N/mm on the front of my Escort and just 45 on the rear and it is similar weight to a CSL.

I think you will find your set up scary at the 'ring, but I bet it is amazing on a normal track .

[Mike RT4]

Lack of development. They've been trying to get E46 to work for 4 years since LeonB had the kit and still it doesn't seem to be valves/sized correctly.

Had the 1k2 since 2008 I think. Had two rebuilds/services and also had them rebooked to Steel from Aluminium as the Alu corrodes/reascts and snaps eventually. This year will go to Black Mambo coating as the Stella also rust eventually which can seize the front dampers.

I had the Nitron 4 way and they were pants as adjustment was all over e shop once you started to move them. Never even got close to having them work as well as the 1k2.

I had Bealo's car for a while and I thought the KW Clubsport were good we'll built units although never drove them on track.

What I have noticed about the Intrax is that they have fantastic adjustment and work across the FULL range meaning I guess they have been sized and vases well as the single adjuster does 2 ways. They ride kerbs fantastically and on my set up seem to make the car feel very planted at all times. I think those that have been in my car mostly comment how stable the car feels (and how sweaty it smells)

I however do chase times and I think for the money the best track weapons are the Black Titanium Intrax 1k2. Service every two winters.

Wasn't so hard was it :blalalala: ? That is great information thanks .

What spring rates do you have?

[shimmy]

Used to have 100/50 and now 120/60. So far not felt ANY difference

Nick Bell used to run 140/70 at the ring and he was quick.