Quick Intro

[m3f_shrspeedblade]

Hi all,



I've been lurking in the forum for quite a while and finally picked up an M3 myself.



It's a 1997 Estoril Blue 5 speed sedan with a dove interior with 151k miles. Was exactly what I wanted even down to the sunroof, no-spoiler, heated seats.

I actually would have preferred bone stock but the Eibach/Bilstein combo, AC Schnitzer wheels, Aftermarket headlight, Kenwood head unit, Dinan intake, and Dinan FSTB were more than acceptable.



The only major things I need to get to sooner rather than later are the rtabs are definitely in need of replacement and the shifter bushings as well, many of the common problems (cooling system, rear strut towers, guibo, tranny mounts, fan and fan clutch) have already been addressed. With all the good info on this site as well as other places I went into it knowing it would be a bit of a project. Maintenance records were ok but not great but after having the car on a lift I'm even happier with the purchase.



I'd driven a student's heavily modified car at Thunderhill once and a stock 98 a while back, but overall impressions after just a couple weeks of ownership are very, very positive. This is the only piston engine I've driven that I think I like as well as a Mazda rotary for smooth power deliver (but with torque-lol!), the handling is up there with my Tein Flex equipped Miata which is saying quite a bit, and I've loved the beautiful but understated look since they came out 20 years ago! In my opinion for it's time this is probably the greatest sports sedan ever built.



I'm having trouble posting pictures for some reason, but I do have several pictures in my profile photo gallery. I figure most people here know what an almost stock M3/4/5 looks like.



A couple of early questions I have if anyone wants to chime in:



-Are you able to tell externally if a water pump has a metal or plastic impeller? If it was done in the last couple of years is it likely to be one of the later ones?



-For the front strut towers does the Dinan FSTB provide enough reinforcement or do you need plates as well? (the rears already have them)



-Is dropping the exhaust pretty much necessary to do the shifter bushings?



-I'm practically sick of reading about RTABs- any input deciding between rubber with the shims and a soft poly?



Glad to have finally "joined the club!"

[m3f_badgtho]

Hi all,


-Are you able to tell externally if a water pump has a metal or plastic impeller? If it was done in the last couple of years is it likely to be one of the later

lolhit:

No you can't. If it's been changed it's likely to be metal or composite. If it's been changed a few years ago, it's time for another. That being said, none of these water pumps are all that amazing. It's a very easy job so I would say just change it, change the stat, stat housing, radiator and expansion tank. Easy job. It's like $300

For the front strut towers does the Dinan FSTB provide enough reinforcement or do you need plates as well? (the rears already have them)


lolhit:

Your front towers already have the OEM reinforcements underneath the tower and they're sufficient. The dinan bar, IMHO is one of the nicer bats out there and will provide additional reinforcement but it's not necessary. It's primarily for looks. An X brace is a better handling mod.

Is dropping the exhaust pretty much necessary to do the shifter bushings?

:

It's the right way to do it. You should drop the exhaust and shields.

It's possible to squirm in there by lowering and loosening but it will take you 3x as long and you're doing it blind. Dropping the exhaust is easy. It's a good opportunity to change the rear hangers which are almost always shot.

I'm practically sick of reading about RTABs- any input deciding between rubber with the shims and a soft poly?


:

Good question and me too. The opinions on this vary but I'll chime in. Poly is not a good idea for a street car, especially without the pocket reinforcements welded in. They divert stress to the pocket. The pocket is inherently weak.


Rubber with limiters is a safer option compared to poly.


Rubber with no limiters is also a safe option.


In either case the weld in reinforcements are a good idea.

[m3f_enderw88]

shrspeedblade, nice ride. welcome to the forum!


OP, exactly what badgtho said, but, when you do the shifter bearings it would be a good time to consider doing the guibo and the cab...dropping the drive sift makes the shifter bushing even easier to to access.


Badgtho, I can't believe you gooned the multi-quote after giving Urluzn such a hard time yesterday!

[m3f_badgtho]

shrspeedblade, nice ride. welcome to the forum!


OP, exactly what badgtho said, but, when you do the shifter bearings it would be a good time to consider doing the guibo and the cab...dropping the drive sift makes the shifter bushing even easier to to access.


Badgtho, I can't believe you gooned the multi-quote after giving Urluzn such a hard time yesterday!

Tap a talk is a biatch but it Shows up fine on my screen?

[m3f_fiveightandten]

-Are you able to tell externally if a water pump has a metal or plastic impeller? If it was done in the last couple of years is it likely to be one of the later ones?

Ben covered this pretty well. I'll add my opinion that if you replace it, i'd stick with either an OE composite, or a Geba cast impeller pump. Just because the impeller is metal doesn't mean it's a good pump. The Graf pumps have a welded impeller and the pump and impeller are pieces of garbage.


Feel for any freeplay in the bearing by putting your hand on the pulley and gently rocking it back and forth. If you feel no freeplay you can opt to leave it. If you don't have paperwork documenting when it went in, and you know it's at least a few years old, you may want to swap it out. Again, OE composite (BMW, or I believe Saleri makes it) or Geba cast impeller.

-For the front strut towers does the Dinan FSTB provide enough reinforcement or do you need plates as well? (the rears already have them)

The strut towers are structural are support the weight of the car. They see forces from this and that's what the reinforcement plates are designed to do (they bolt in from the bottom). They were factory installed in all 96+ M3's. Look at your strut towers and you should see the black lip of the plate in the hole in the strut tower. If they're not there, buy them and install them. They're like $10.


The towers also see forces from the strut rebounding and pulling down on the metal. This is closer to what the strut brace helps with, though the forces acting on the tower are more complex than simple up and down. The ideal situation is to have the metal sandwiched between the reinforcement plate and a strut tower brace. However, there's no substitute for having proper suspension in good working order that doesn't bottom out. Guys on very hard suspension (or people who have blown struts that bottom out easily) have deformed the towers even with reinforcement plates on there.


Short answer:

Use reinforcement plates and have properly functioning struts in the very least. For added reassurance, have the strut brace in there. With modded suspension, choose your setup and bump travel limits carefully (and based on the car's intended use).

-Is dropping the exhaust pretty much necessary to do the shifter bushings?

What Ben said. I'll add that you may run into rusty bolts on the exhaust. Get all new hardware before dropping it. Also, if you ever take the front section off the exhaust manifolds, the bolts at the triangle flanges are a *****. People rarely get them off without cutting. PB blaster and heat will help. Do *not* hit the headers with a hammer.


Personally, if you can't spin them off, i'd recommend this method:

-Use a cutting wheel to carefully cut into the nut on one side. Get as close as you can without hitting the threads on the stud.

-Use a chisel, or flat bladed screwdriver in the groove and twist to try and break the nut in half. If that doesn't work, get yourself a nut splitter and use that.

-Chase the threads on the studs with a die (M10 1.5 IIRC)


If you mess the threads up on the studs, get the exhaust free, mount it temporarily, then get the car to an exhaust shop and have them torch the studs out. Install bolts and nuts and be done with it. Drilling these out is terrible.

-I'm practically sick of reading about RTABs- any input deciding between rubber with the shims and a soft poly?

OE rubber and shims for anything but a dedicated track car. Check the pockets regularly for damage, or weld the reinforcements in.


Here's a cut and paste of my take on poly RTAB's:




I don't care for poly RTAB's for the following reasons (this is assuming a stock car):

-The material is there to provide a mounting point that allows movement on multiple planes as the suspension compresses over elevation changes. It's not designed to be a limiter of that movement. The shock, bump stop, and rear ball joints are supposed to do that. The RTAB provides a mounting point, and a reference for toe angle. On stock suspension, hard poly can limit suspension movement too much.


-Bushing material harder than OE rubber is resisting movement more than the rubber. The energy has to go somewhere. Instead of getting soaked up by the bushing material deflecting, it gets transferred right to the welded bungs, which are a weak point on our cars.


-Poly squeaks and makes noise. If you lubricate liberally with good marine grease, this shouldn't be a problem. But the more grease you use, the more sand and grit you attract. There are pages of threads with people complaining about noisy poly RTAB's. And they can't do anything about it without dropping the carriers, re-lubing, and paying for an alignment.


Poly is a totally viable option for track cars. And it's a totally viable option if you're on coilovers with high rate springs and limited suspension travel when compared to stock. If the bushing isn't limiting your movement, and you have reinforcements welded onto your RTAB pockets, it's a viable option to run them. But to each their own. I have coilovers and welded reinforcements, and I run OE rubber with limiters.


Just one person's opinion. But hopefully that answers your question. For some more reading, Vorshlag discusses this on their website:

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info...roducts_id=515

[m3f_enderw88]

Tap a talk is a biatch but it Shows up fine on my screen?

Funny, it looks fine now. Before it looked like you lost the initial brackets on the extra quotes...

[m3f_hencini]

Welcome!! Heck of a combo you picked up. M3/4/5 FTW...

[m3f_na6croadster]

Welcome from another Miata track rat. Post pics of your roadster and M3.

[m3f_shrspeedblade]

-Thanks for the tips on the cooling system. It looks like everything was replaced in the past 3 years but I'll probably make it a mid-range project and do it late summer unless I notice something to cause enough concern to do it sooner.


- I think I read a while back about the 96+ having the front reinforcements stock for the shock towers, it's just too many details to remember from digging through old threads and FAQ pages lol! The seller said the FSTB would help as well but it's good to have confirmation.


-I was afraid of that with the exhaust, I've certainly done past jobs "the hard way" on ly to find out later that it would take half the time if I'd removed more. By cab do you mean some sort of driveshaft bearing? The guibo looks brand new so I dearly hope that was done at the same time.


-I was originally leaning towards stock rubber with the RTABs, then I started reading about the softer poly options and was leaning that way due to durability and ease of installation, but after reading yet more stuff -including what fiveeightandten wrote a while back-I was back to the rubber with the limiters (see why I'm getting sick of these!) I think I'm just going to go the stock w/limiter route and take a long look at the pockets.

I have no intention of tracking the car at this point but the temptation may certainly be there some time in the future.


na6croadster, I'll post a picture of the Miata when I finally figure out why the forum won't let me (it may be they are all too high a resolution). It's great how the cars complement each other so much=do I feel like chocolate or strawberry today?


Another question: I'd eventually like to run a square set up with the tires. However, I can't find much info on the Eibachs and how they affect front/rear balance compared to stock since it seems like other options are more popular. Anyone have any input there?

Also, are the H&R OE sport springs a stock equivalent? Not something I plan to change soon but would be nice to know for the future as I always thought stock springs/upgraded sways would be a nice setup for this car as opposed to the other way around which is what I have now.

[m3f_englishtom1596q]

Welcome!! Another estroil 3/4/5! i like it!


Your questions have been answered above but i'll add to the RTAB. I installed poly in mine for a street car which is slowly making its way into a track car. I regret it and will be switching to OEM bushings with limiters. Although the polys were easy to install and stiffened everything up, they are horrible for a street car, increasing noise and vibration through the chassis. The reinforcement plates are a good idea either way you go though.


As for the suspension i had the H&R sports on my old car and loved them, perfect amount of drop, with good balance, but without being ridiculously low. The H&R OE sport i believe are supposed to sit at standard ride height but give a better ride so this would be a good compromise. I can't speak of the Eibachs.


A front sway bar on these cars totally transforms the car. BMW chose a staggered wheel setup and skinny front bar to make it understeer and less tail happy like the e30 was. By going with a square tire setup and a sway bar i think you'll be very happy.