Turbo vs. Supercharger

[m3f_95RogueM3]

I was hoping someone would answer the poster's original questions? I, too, would love to hear about longevity of the engine with turbo vs super.



And how do the driving impressions of super/turbo cars compare? Does the weird delivery of turbo make it really hard to drive?



I find it encouraging to see the Dado car in autoX and drifting events, both which require a manageable power delivery.

I did answer it to a degree with my first post. THe life of an engine with the added stress of boost with decrease..but not by more than 10-15% or so (as I have read from a few sources). A Turbo (as mentioned in my first post) will inherently provide more stress on the motor as it builds boost eariler and holds that boost till redline....whereas a Supercharger only builds max boost at redline and therefore doesnt exert as much force on the engine throughout the entire RPM band as does a Turbo.



IN Short...a Turbo is harder on your engine than is a Supercharger at equal boost levels.



Depending upon the turbo selected a turbo can either provide fairly linear power or can provide a jump of hundreds of HP/TQ within a 500rpm period. Generally speaking a turbo is less predictable than a supercharger...as a supercharger is run off of the crank it builds boost as you increase your engine rpms...therefore it is quite linear with peak boost made at redline. (provides an enhanced NA feeling).



The Twin Screw is said to be the most like a v8 engine in that there is no lag..and it produces tons of power with great predictability.



The twin screw is not out yet because Josh at Eurosport has an in-house CNC machine on which he insists on making all the castings and components. The two beta/test cars are working wonderfully. Both have seen no problems whatsoever...and Neil (who lives in Washington, DC) runs his on the track and completed the one lap of america in his Twin Screwed M Coupe...taking first place in his division. The twin screw release date has become something of an ongoing joke among those with deposits in for the kit...its output looks so good and the power so intoxicating that people are willing to wait. At last notice it was supposed to be out at the end of this month (that deadline was give in November, though)..I would say we will probably see kits by early to mid-summer.



FAQ= http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=46614





95BlkBim3r: I would be hesitant to order their RCAs if I were you. Dado has snapped atleast one set, Projecte36 on Bf.c snapped his without really abusing his car at all. I also know their was another case in which the hardware sheered off. The RCAs are SUPER important in keeping you on the road...be careful with what you put on your car...I am sticking with stock even though I could use some adjustments to my rear camber.

[m3f_M3_AV8TR_09262c9aba]

This should answer most of your questions on the turbo:





I have limited experience with S/C's, but as Turbos I'll just post some of my previous threads, but to sum it all up don't go Turbo unless you have a lot of cash or you consider yourself a good mechanic....or both.



http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/show...6722#post486722

I've posted countless replies on turbos so you I suggest you check them out, I can sum them up by saying this about custom turbo upgrade, if you've done/have all of this....:

1. FULL tool set

2. Another car

3. Know absolutely everything about turbocharged engines including

--a. What is a wastegate and how it works.

--b. What's overboost and how to prevent it.

--c. What's fuel mapping and how electronics cntrl mixture and boost.

--d. What's detonation and how to compensate.

--e. What happens when you install an intercooler.

--f. What's fuel injector cycle and how it works.

4. Rebuilt engines before.

5. Owned and upgraded turbo engines before.



....so there you go, since I suspect that the answer to most questions is no you should save up and get a kit that has been proven as a good stage 1 setup.



If you want to learn by "do it yourself" then you can get an older turbo car, rebuild the engine, upgrade it and make it faster than the M3 for what it costs you to Turbo yours.



After you get that kind of experience then you sould be ready to take on an M3 turbo project........unless you win the lotto or something to not worry $$$ about breaking.

__________________

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/show...4068#post474068

Unfortunately I've never had SC in any of my cars so I don't know much about tunning them, but my friends that have in the past come up with the same problem, wanting more power. Once they put the SC on (yes big big difference) getting more power is hard and expensive 'cause you won't get much more on the induction side, it just maximizes any other mod you get. But you get one really good thing, a large, reliable not much knowlege required power increase.



Not the case with turbos, we've talked a lot about them here and I can't stress enough every time the fact that turbo upgrades ARE NOT FOR THE AMATEUR!!, unless your pocket is deep enough to take the car to a professional tuner on every hicup.....and there are lots of them, not to mention that when turbo engines break there's not much left of them.

But when properly tuned....fuggedaboudit!!! it's a beautiful thing, then it's just about increasing fuel and air pressure to get big time power.

--------------------

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/show...8818#post358818



I have limited experience with superchargers but have worked extensively with turbos. Your choice should be based on how deep is your pocket and how much power you want to get. SC's are very safe and easy to install with a good increase in pwr but there's not much more you can get out of them. With a turbo you can get the same pwr increase with factory seetings or get insane amount of horsepower by increasing fuel and boost and an EMS. Installing it is a full blown project you need a tuner to do this and tune it or expect to possibly fry the motor in the process. In other words turbo= lot of $$$ and knowlege...that's after you spend the $8k or so on it plus installation.

I know that's not what you wanted to hear...but a lot people learn the hard way...I sure did.

__________________

[m3f_95RogueM3]

M3_Av8TR,



While I agree with you that your posts are very informative..it almost seems as if they are based off of your experiences building your own turbo cars or modifying your own turbo cars without the use of a "kit".



The kits mentioned are all complete down to every detail...and all except for the RMS kit have the tuning nailed down...



Basically, I am saying, Yes it is a good thing to know what overboost is, how a heat exchanger works, how a wastegate functions...etc....but it isnt mandatory to know all of this when buying a kit that has been well designed, and tested in many many applications.



Also, Money isnt as big an issue as you make it out to be. If you have the money to buy the kit and have the money to pay for maintenance on the kit there shouldnt be any huge problems...especially because you are buying these kits from BMW tuners...if something goes arwy they are the ones to whom you can turn and they are expected to solve your problems.



I think if you are piecing together your own kit and sourcing software from someone based upon your basic components, then your thoughts stand true. Basically with this route you are dealing with any problems that might arise in doing your own R&D....



Just some thoughts that occurred to me while reading your thread...

[m3f_Serious_eeb8859403]

I did answer it to a degree with my first post. THe life of an engine with the added stress of boost with decrease..but not by more than 10-15% or so (as I have read from a few sources). A Turbo (as mentioned in my first post) will inherently provide more stress on the motor as it builds boost eariler and holds that boost till redline....whereas a Supercharger only builds max boost at redline and therefore doesnt exert as much force on the engine throughout the entire RPM band as does a Turbo.



IN Short...a Turbo is harder on your engine than is a Supercharger at equal boost levels.



Depending upon the turbo selected a turbo can either provide fairly linear power or can provide a jump of hundreds of HP/TQ within a 500rpm period. Generally speaking a turbo is less predictable than a supercharger...as a supercharger is run off of the crank it builds boost as you increase your engine rpms...therefore it is quite linear with peak boost made at redline. (provides an enhanced NA feeling).



The Twin Screw is said to be the most like a v8 engine in that there is no lag..and it produces tons of power with great predictability.



The twin screw is not out yet because Josh at Eurosport has an in-house CNC machine on which he insists on making all the castings and components. The two beta/test cars are working wonderfully. Both have seen no problems whatsoever...and Neil (who lives in Washington, DC) runs his on the track and completed the one lap of america in his Twin Screwed M Coupe...taking first place in his division. The twin screw release date has become something of an ongoing joke among those with deposits in for the kit...its output looks so good and the power so intoxicating that people are willing to wait. At last notice it was supposed to be out at the end of this month (that deadline was give in November, though)..I would say we will probably see kits by early to mid-summer.



FAQ= http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=46614





95BlkBim3r: I would be hesitant to order their RCAs if I were you. Dado has snapped atleast one set, Projecte36 on Bf.c snapped his without really abusing his car at all. I also know their was another case in which the hardware sheered off. The RCAs are SUPER important in keeping you on the road...be careful with what you put on your car...I am sticking with stock even though I could use some adjustments to my rear camber.





2 points.



centrifugal force superchargers "build" boost as rpm's increase, thus they only make full boost for a limited amount of rpm's which = less powa.



twin screw (aka eaton/ roots type/ postive displacement) blowers make full boost just off idle all the way to redline. making the motor actually feel larger (v8 feel).



as for the rear lower control arms if you look at the stock ones they are very skinny and hollow, basically they are designed to bend or break in certain situations (like hitting a curb). this prevents bending the subframe which is good but there is no way that an aftermarket camber correction rear lower control arm is weaker than a stock unit.

[m3f_illone]

Turbo charging is not "THAT" complicated. It's fun to learn and you could easily find out all the information on the web. www.google.com



The most important piece of the puzzle when turbo'ing would be tuning and engine management. All of a sudden AFR affects everything and detonation is your worst enemy:haha:



The thing with the M3 and other bimmers is the fact that the car starts out NA so it's very important to be careful with boost and tuning because the compression is usually not suited for high boost. Just something to keep in mind.



I will ALWAYS choose turbo over supercharging for the feel and power. Especially on smaller motors. On a bigger V-8 motor then Supercharger is the way to go because you have a torquey beast to spin that blower up but on smaller motors turbo is the way to go. Inline six and 4 bangers you can't go wrong if you turbo your ride.



I know a few things about turbos so if you ever need help I can give you the answer myself or find someone who knows





M3_Av8TR makes some good points but his list leans towards the UBER safe side of things. As long as the guy working on your car knows all that stuff you'll be ok so long as you can read the EGT and boost gauge. It's good to know but not required unless you are trying to build a kit from scratch with pvc pipe and old radiator hoses

[m3f_M3 Brasil_9d884090ba]

Not a big issue ... i agree that less mods less headache .... if you keep cool air and good fuel ratio you are OK ... and just don´t go big boost.



I had a lot of turbo cars in my life ... 4 cilinder 1.9l with over 400 hp, no big deal with forged internals and good fuel supply.

But Today I would not go for that .... that why I`m looking for an euro spec again ... I would trade it wright now if I could.

[m3f_M3_AV8TR_09262c9aba]

M3_Av8TR,



While I agree with you that your posts are very informative..it almost seems as if they are based off of your experiences building your own turbo cars or modifying your own turbo cars without the use of a "kit".



I think if you are piecing together your own kit and sourcing software from someone based upon your basic components, then your thoughts stand true. Basically with this route you are dealing with any problems that might arise in doing your own R&D....



Just some thoughts that occurred to me while reading your thread...





Agree 100%, I should have been more specific on kits. Basically I'm trying to say that you must resist the almost unresistible urge to crank up the boost beyond kit specs, it's very easy to just turn that knob or push a button when someone beats you by half carlength and you say "3 or 4 more pounds won't hurt"......yes they can!!

Besides, it doesn't matter how much power you get from the kit, in a very short time you will always want more, that's when you could be walking into the dark side of turbocharging.



Other than that you're right, kits are pretty safe, they're just unforgiving to operator mistakes.

[m3f_Luke the Hoser]

Hey all, thanks so much for all the helpful info! My questions were DEFINITELY answered! You guys rock! The generousity with the information is appreciated.