Improving crank case ventilation / catch tank

[m3f_cracky_88af6b7d5a]

ya another lame set up. these guys have no clue...

http://www.tunerzine.com/articles/243/images/NHRA-Indy-08-18-2007-125.jpg

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad177/cnaylor161/Tony%20Palo/tony-4.jpg

[m3f_Mad Dog 20_30ee87435f]

ya another lame set up. these guys have no clue...

Again, truly beautiful presentation. Lovely braided steel hoses and AN fittings w/ multiple little cc filters. Hawt indeed.



Is there any CC vac generated via any of those set-ups? Or do you know?

[m3f_cracky_88af6b7d5a]

its to eliminate the crank case pressure under high boost... no need

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEbGSRE6cJ4

[m3f_Mad Dog 20_30ee87435f]

Regardless of boost pressure, crankcase vacuum is desirable for a number of important reasons. Otherwise, one may as well just clamp a little Pepboys filter onto the valve cover vent(s) and call it a day (in which case all that lovely circuitous plumbing is superfluous/aesthetic).

[m3f_cracky_88af6b7d5a]

lol its got two lines running to the back of the block...so ya thats two lines you cant see.... trust me those guys know way more than you do.

[m3f_Mad Dog 20_30ee87435f]

lol its got two lines running to the back of the block...so ya thats two lines you cant see....





That simply allows the condensed oil (and other slop in the catch can) to drain back into the crankcase.

Its a highly glorified yet very basic catch can set-up. Huge shiny can, multiple filters and multiple AN-14 braided lines coming off the valve cover. Adds a lot of drama and spice to the engine bay. Quite ubiquitous in Hondaland. Nothing tech about it at all. Zero crankcase vacuum created.



The same functionality could be achieved w/ 2 rubber hoses, a few hose clamps and an empty beer can with a paper towel stuffed in it.

That may be all they need for their purposes (drag/show car or what have you), but it is a rudimentary, albeit dramatic, set-up.







trust me those guys know way more than you do.



Oh, I don't doubt that, but I'm not communicating with those guys . . . I'm communicating with you.

[m3f_turbo5s]

Regardless of boost pressure, crankcase vacuum is desirable for a number of important reasons. Otherwise, one may as well just clamp a little Pepboys filter onto the valve cover vent(s) and call it a day (in which case all that lovely circuitous plumbing is superfluous/aesthetic).



except! the filter would get oily and start dripping oil.



Definately agree, it looks like too many hoses, I never liked braided hose all over look. (though it looks better nowadays without red and blue fittings everywhere)



Figure the lines aren't under pressure or vacuum, but I guess it's the shiny factor.



looks like drag race setup.. how much oil can accumulate after 1 run I wonder..

[m3f_shaeff_c13ce647d2]

No vacuum on the crank case, no care. For a drag only car, sure, do whatever's needed. However, all of that is NOT needed, and is extra weight, so I'll go with the thought that it's a show car.


Ideal setup would be a baffled catch can (like a McKinney), one hose going to the crank case vent on the cam/valve cover, the other to a good vacuum source such as the intake manifold, or anyplace AFTER the throttlebody. Obviously it needs to be set up differently for a boosted car, otherwise you end up pressurizing the crank case. But we're not talking boosted cars right now so I'll stop there.

[m3f_cracky_88af6b7d5a]

Obviously it needs to be set up differently for a boosted car, otherwise you end up pressurizing the crank case.


bingo.


and lol @ show car. did you not see the video I posted?


and his car isnt the only one that runs that set up.

Im well aware of the various ways one could set it up with vac...


The purpose of a breather tank is similar to a PCV setup except the breather tank simply stores the unwanted gases and blow-by rather than reintroducing them back into the intake stream. Eliminating the PCV system altogether and running an open breather setup is best suited for cars that spend a lot of time at wide-open throttle and is the one we'll discuss. Such engines don't need the vacuum assistance provided by the PCV since the engine produces little to no vacuum at wide-open throttle anyway. An open breather setup like this is suitable for any high-performance engine with excessive blow-by.


My point of showing it was to show in such a wild set up something simple that works.

[m3f_Mad Dog 20_30ee87435f]

except! the filter would get oily and start dripping oil.





True true . . .





But in terms of crank case ventilation, a lil pep boys filter clamped on the valve cover vent tube would achieve the same exact thing as all of that ricockuloous braided plumbing. In other words, because there is no cc vac, the over-the-top hondaland set-up is a down-grade vs. our OE M3 set-up.

[m3f_Mad Dog 20_30ee87435f]

bingo.

Bingo what? Proper FI ccv set-ups incorporate vac, as well, they are simply plumbed differently than NA set-ups.





My point of showing it was to show in such a wild set up something simple that works.



But its not a wild set-up and it does not work (in terms of creating vac).

Its the equivalent of a golden diamond-encrusted sling shot. Same thing cave men used, but WAY blingier.

[m3f_cracky_88af6b7d5a]

:facepalm:


are you that dense? Its a wild set up in that its a 4 banger making north of 1000whp with a lot of boost.


You dont need vac set up. The oe set up is **** since it just introduces all that blow by into the intake charge which is fine for daily use but not for serious engines like the pics I posted.


a little pep boys filter on the one open port wont do **** when you are running 40+ psi of boost . The crankcase gets pressurized. You need to be relieve that pressure.


stop being a a55.

[m3f_cracky_88af6b7d5a]

quote right from dude himself after he did some logging(many yrs ago at this point)


I thought this was interesting. On the hot rod and pro cars we always ran dry sump systems and I never saw one that pulled a vacuum on a high boost turbo motor, much less got down to atmospheric pressure in the crankcase. We'd usually see 1.5-5psi crankcase pressure. I setup a map sensor on the crankcase on my car to see how effective our catch can really is at big power, I think it's safe to say it's sufficient!


http://i54.tinypic.com/sutsh5.jpg


more info on some other cars(which again, this is from like 07/08)

Measurements were taken in the valve cover. On Kenny's car it was with a 3 stage dry sump pump, i don't remember the brand on that one. That one was bad though, 4-7psi crankcase pressure on a fresh motor. It had 1 -10 breather coming off the back of the block where the black box used to go. Another was Rado's car with a 5 stage Barnes dry sump setup, we'd see 1.5-2.5psi on that. The Barnes setup just had a breather on the dry sump tank. Typically you don't have breathers open on a dry sump motor as you're trying to pull a vacuum on the crankcase and it's hard to do with a hole in the motor. lol


On Chucks car we have a Peterson dry sump and 2 -12 breathers off the back of the block, but we've never measured crankcase pressure. I remember Gardellas Civic had 2 huge lines coming off the back of the pan to relive crankcase pressure and he had a dry sump on it.


High boost engines make a lot of crankcase pressure.

[m3f_shaeff_c13ce647d2]

bingo.



and lol @ show car. did you not see the video I posted?



and his car isnt the only one that runs that set up.

Im well aware of the various ways one could set it up with vac...



My point of showing it was to show in such a wild set up something simple that works.

No, didn't see the video- it's blocked at work.



If it's a drag car, why not just plumb it to the exhaust and ditch the extra weight? Let Mr.Venturi take over crankcase pressure evacuation duty.









But in terms of crank case ventilation, a lil pep boys filter clamped on the valve cover vent tube would achieve the same exact thing as all of that ricockuloous braided plumbing. In other words, because there is no cc vac, the over-the-top hondaland set-up is a down-grade vs. our OE M3 set-up.



I agree. If all he's doing is plumbing pretty SS braided hose from ports where pressure is present and running those hoses to a catch can with vents, why not just delete the whole deal and run a breather? I understand that would introduce a bit of oil mist to the engine bay, the flipside is that you could always run the hoses out and away from the car and just ditch the tank if you're set on that type of vent system.



Even if there's still pressure present in the crank case, introducing vacuum will at a minimum, REDUCE that pressure and bring it more toward zero or into vacuum.



I've run catch cans on all my cars. I ran one on my MKIII Turbo Supra, I run one on my daily driver Toyota Pickup, and will be running one on the M3 in due time. They always work better (properly) with vacuum on the crank case.

[m3f_Braymond14_63960d99c1]

This is one of the catch can solutions that I feel is done right.


http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/images/products/hpf/oil_catch_tanks_e46_lrg.jpg


The idea is to have vac, and most important, large enough diameter hose. The diameter is critical and is often overlooked by many.