Singer DLS

[Nate047]

Those cars are much more than the sum of the parts, I think there's only a handful of people who could design and build an M3 to the level of a Singer build. But the reality is no one will buy one for the kind of money any Singer costs anyway.

[oceansize]

So you're saying I need to get another 71 lbs out of my car.

Pfftt 71 lbs...driver mod, am I right? 😂

[Obioban]

I don't even think it needs to be all THAT powerful. An additional 100hp in a 3000lb chassis that retains reliability and usability, adds precision to some inputs while keeping others muted, in an understated package I think is where the ultimate M3 of any generation lives.

So you're saying I need to get another 71 lbs out of my car.

[tnord]

The DLS is amazing, but it would be MORE expensive to do a similar thing to the e46 M3. The air cooled 911s are extremely rudimentary stock, and have a ton of room for improvement. The e46 M3 is more complex and starts off more optimized.

The air cooleds also benefit from being the same car for ~30 years, so you can pick and choose the best parts from various generations. Our only BMW based inspiration/part source is the CSL.

That said, I do think it's possible to take inspiration from the Singer. Specifically, the "everything matters" mind set is really what differentiates Singer from other tuners, IMO. It's easy to make a car better at a specific thing by compromising it for everything else, and/or making it feel crappy/race car. I really try, sadly often resulting in removing things I've done, to mod my car to that mindset.

To my mind, if a Singer style e46 M3 existed, it would be...
-Stroker S65 with ~500 hp at ~9000rpm
-full carbon body that looks stock (CSL), but with additional tire clearance, and/or full CF chassis chassis (Slonik is currently developing an e46 M3 CF monocoque, that is not infeasible). Weight should be sub 3000 lbs
-all vinyl or plastic surfaces inside wrapped in leather or alcantara
-double wishbone suspension conversion
-back seat functionality retained, as that's part of what makes an M3 an M3
-stock looking but stupidly light wheels (hopefully 18s :P), wider to take advantage of those fender flares
-sufficiently fancy brakes/suspension
-remove/replace wiring harness/trunk modules

Like the singer, though, there's a bit of Ship of Theseus going on-- when is an e46 M3 no longer an e46 M3? If you replace the chassis and the engine and the suspension geometry, is it still an e46 M3?
That said, not sure I care. A <3000 lb, 500hp at 9000rpm, 4 seater with glorious interior would be amazing, e46 m3 or not.

I think Singer has been inspirational beyond just the P-car world, and has certainly influenced how I look at things. I'm 100% in agreement with you that the EVERYTHING MATTERS mantra is the foundational approach that can be carried over across platforms.

The DLS is a whole other thing, to which the extreme of full carbon monocoque and rebuilding the suspension geometry could also apply. But in the terms of a "basic Singer," I think you rightly start asking the question of what makes an M3 an M3, and specifically an E46 M3.

To me it's the dual nature of the car, inherent in its origins of BMWs entry level commuter car platform. The 911 is the halo sports car from the ground up, and to me gives you license to make it a bit extreme, and farther removed from stock in its presentation if you will.

In terms of a how a "Singer BMW M3" would be executed, here are my thoughts.
- What an E46 M3 is, and to me really any M3's identity, is a car that still mostly hides its speed. It retains back seat functionality, displays understated styling, and provides a quasi luxurious experience paired with a raucous engine and chassis tuning. Much attention needs to be paid to NVH.
- More specifically, the proper BMW engine is an inline 6. I'd be worried about reliability of a stroker with the already insane piston speeds. I think there's been enough development over the last decade with traditional bolt ons and tuning that a worthy engine could be developed through proper execution of the details. I've always been disappointed in the ability of the engine to quickly gain or lose revs. I would pay particular attention to the mass of all moving engine parts.
- With a Singer level budget, I think significant effort should be made in sorting out shifting ease, precision, and serviceability of the transmission. There are companies out there that can build gear sets to fit inside of original bell housings.
- I think you can draw upon the original GTS, as well as the CSL for inspiration, but not to the extent that you plop a V8 into it. But perhaps softening some of the fender treatments so that it you can tell they're not stock body panels, but it's not obvious how. The side silhouette of the car is the iconic part, which means no massive wing, but perhaps a further refined CSL deck profile. Same with the front bumper, the CSL winglets look tacked on, because they are. Mold a new CF bumper with that shape in mind, integrating better airflow management behind it.
- On the aero front, there's opportunity on the underside of this car rather than big wings and splitters.
- With suspension, compliance needs to be retained. The car needs to keep some of the roll and softness of the era, as its not, and never was, a pure sports car. The effort here should be on weight and optimization of damper tuning to work with modern tire stiffness and selected bushings.

I don't even think it needs to be all THAT powerful. An additional 100hp in a 3000lb chassis that retains reliability and usability, adds precision to some inputs while keeping others muted, in an understated package I think is where the ultimate M3 of any generation lives.

[Kcalhoun27]

I mean, yes, but we’re talking about a Singer DLS equivalent car, so…

Yes absolutely, i didnt mean to take away from what youre saying. I think i got off track day dreaming about a Singer M6.

Back on topic now….

[Obioban]

Good points youve made. I think the beauty of these cars is that they are pretty well rounded and although they can be made better, its no small expense to do it. That, to me, says a lot about how good they are and why we enjoy them. The car youre describing is easily $150k, and i know that isnt the car id build if i was looking to spend that. An E24 M6 on the other hand…

I mean, yes, but we’re talking about a Singer DLS equivalent car, so…

[Kcalhoun27]

Good points youve made. I think the beauty of these cars is that they are pretty well rounded and although they can be made better, its no small expense to do it. That, to me, says a lot about how good they are and why we enjoy them. The car youre describing is easily $150k, and i know that isnt the car id build if i was looking to spend that. An E24 M6 on the other hand…

[Obioban]

The DLS is amazing, but it would be MORE expensive to do a similar thing to the e46 M3. The air cooled 911s are extremely rudimentary stock, and have a ton of room for improvement. The e46 M3 is more complex and starts off more optimized.

The air cooleds also benefit from being the same car for ~30 years, so you can pick and choose the best parts from various generations. Our only BMW based inspiration/part source is the CSL.

That said, I do think it's possible to take inspiration from the Singer. Specifically, the "everything matters" mind set is really what differentiates Singer from other tuners, IMO. It's easy to make a car better at a specific thing by compromising it for everything else, and/or making it feel crappy/race car. I really try, sadly often resulting in removing things I've done, to mod my car to that mindset.

To my mind, if a Singer style e46 M3 existed, it would be...
-Stroker S65 with ~500 hp at ~9000rpm
-full carbon body that looks stock (CSL), but with additional tire clearance, and/or full CF chassis chassis (Slonik is currently developing an e46 M3 CF monocoque, that is not infeasible). Weight should be sub 3000 lbs
-all vinyl or plastic surfaces inside wrapped in leather or alcantara
-double wishbone suspension conversion
-back seat functionality retained, as that's part of what makes an M3 an M3
-stock looking but stupidly light wheels (hopefully 18s :P), wider to take advantage of those fender flares
-sufficiently fancy brakes/suspension
-remove/replace wiring harness/trunk modules

Like the singer, though, there's a bit of Ship of Theseus going on-- when is an e46 M3 no longer an e46 M3? If you replace the chassis and the engine and the suspension geometry, is it still an e46 M3?
That said, not sure I care. A <3000 lb, 500hp at 9000rpm, 4 seater with glorious interior would be amazing, e46 m3 or not.

[Tbonem3]

Isn't it fun enough to mod our cars as we currently do? Seems like we already have one of the best all around cars, aftermarkets, and community/knowledge bases.

[ra2fanatic]

The thing im specifically wondering is whether there is a way for a company to streamline and standardize the process of making a normal e46 m3 into a full on CSL+ replica. If they can offer this at a reasonable sub $100k mark it might be a draw for some in the near future. But again i am just [playing with ideas here so i cant say how realistic this all is

It's possible to make an OEM+ M3, but those individuals are far and few between. Every every one individual that'll spend $8k on CSL buckets, there'll be countless that would say that money could get them a 300k mile E46 M3. To get into any air-cooled vehicle at this point requires high 5 figures, and into 6. E46's don't demand that unfortunately and that'll ultimately prevent such an OEM+ shop to make that kinda build.

[Kcalhoun27]

The thing im specifically wondering is whether there is a way for a company to streamline and standardize the process of making a normal e46 m3 into a full on CSL+ replica. If they can offer this at a reasonable sub $100k mark it might be a draw for some in the near future. But again i am just [playing with ideas here so i cant say how realistic this all is

Totally understand. I would guess that sub 100k, youre not going to get the attention to detail that Singer is known for. But, i think a quality CSL rebuild, with every detail noted is well within that budget. I think you could probably get a respray in as well

[yhp2009]

Thats the real thing, the cost. Singer makes an amazing product, but theyre a quarter million to get in the door. I imagine if you had 250k to put into the car, a shop would take it on. But the e46 just doesnt have that draw, it would seem.

Heck, just the interior i want, which is basically OEM+ is around 10k and its not even remotely in Singer territory. I compromised with what i know ill be happy with vs price and it was still a healthy bill

The thing im specifically wondering is whether there is a way for a company to streamline and standardize the process of making a normal e46 m3 into a full on CSL+ replica. If they can offer this at a reasonable sub $100k mark it might be a draw for some in the near future. But again i am just [playing with ideas here so i cant say how realistic this all is

[Kcalhoun27]

Yea just day dreaming of what could be. If singer actually decided to do e46 restorations how awesome that would be. Tho I prolly couldnt afford it haha

Thats the real thing, the cost. Singer makes an amazing product, but theyre a quarter million to get in the door. I imagine if you had 250k to put into the car, a shop would take it on. But the e46 just doesnt have that draw, it would seem.

Heck, just the interior i want, which is basically OEM+ is around 10k and its not even remotely in Singer territory. I compromised with what i know ill be happy with vs price and it was still a healthy bill

[yhp2009]

we should be honest with ourselves, as much as we fancy OEM+ builds to be equivalent to what Singer does, it just simply is not


all mods that are truly Singer-esque in the form of custom wide bodies, bold interior choices, or FI are generally frowned upon on this forum

Yea just day dreaming of what could be. If singer actually decided to do e46 restorations how awesome that would be. Tho I prolly couldnt afford it haha

[maupineda]

we should be honest with ourselves, as much as we fancy OEM+ builds to be equivalent to what Singer does, it just simply is not


all mods that are truly Singer-esque in the form of custom wide bodies, bold interior choices, or FI are generally frowned upon on this forum

Totally agree, besides, the level of builds Singer do make them more of an OEM themselves rather than a tuner or restorer shop. The DLS is even more appealing tan a factory 992 GT3 in my eyes