S54 Stroker build

[jbfrancis3]

Let's check the BMEP. With 440nm that's 17.0 BMEP, so that seems implausible even with a raised CR.

Carbahn's 303 ft lbs = 410nm, or 15.9 BMEP. Seems much more reasonable, plus you mention that engine is on race fuel. What are the specs behind Mike Cotter's build, I'm not in the loop.

Did I calc those right ethan ?

[M/Anthony]

I agree impossible, I think I got it wrong initially saying I assume this is wheel hp. What data are you comparing to say its low for a stroker?

Well, he doesn't quote new power figures going to 288/280 cams; only that he picked up 40nm of torque. Note that he also raised CR, meaning tune has changed, so there have been multiple changes and latest dyno numbers are not provided. You would think he means +40nm on top of the 400nm quoted prior but its not 100% confirmed.

mike cotter's built s54 and another Carbahn race engine getting 303 wtq and 380whp (non ported head) additionally that engine is driven around the street

some more info on the carbahn built s54: 288/280 12.5 lift, vanos retained, csl aribox routed to the front bumper, titanium intake valves. Dailey Dry sump, the driveshaft shop carbon driveshaft and 100 octane
VANOS was modified to prevent valve piston contact, different factory timing
according to the same post by another Instagram user, the p54 evo ran 316 and 15mm lift with vanos retained

and with the 40+ nm of torque he would have 324 wtq

[jbfrancis3]

correct me if im wrong but with those results, even if that is at teh flywheel 15% drivetrain loss is: 368 whp and 275 wheel torque (rounded up)
Which seems a bit low for a stroker. But 433 whp and 324 tq is impossible.
With longer duration camshafts, you would see a higher hp level, maybe its down to the tune?

I agree impossible, I think I got it wrong initially saying I assume this is wheel hp. What data are you comparing to say its low for a stroker?

Well, he doesn't quote new power figures going to 288/280 cams; only that he picked up 40nm of torque. Note that he also raised CR, meaning tune has changed, so there have been multiple changes and latest dyno numbers are not provided. You would think he means +40nm on top of the 400nm quoted prior but its not 100% confirmed.

[M/Anthony]

correct me if im wrong but with those results, even if that is at teh flywheel 15% drivetrain loss is: 368 whp and 275 wheel torque (rounded up)
Which seems a bit low for a stroker. But 433 whp and 324 tq is impossible.
With longer duration camshafts, you would see a higher hp level, maybe its down to the tune?

[Obioban]

CSL valves are the same size as stock.

[M/Anthony]

There is youtube acct named 'Teufelswerk' who has a few videos on his 3.5L stroker. Little bits of info here & there, including a camshaft revision. I'm assuming he is quoting whp.

I'm placing the description from 3 of his videos in German/English (using google translation):

Jun 16, 2017
Bmw e46 m3 mit 3.5 Liter langracing stroker Motor, perfekt gebaut von Motorsporttechnik Mandel. Komplette supersprint aga, mk Rennsporttechnik Ansaugung Lagerung etc. Mishimoto kühlerpaket, BBS gt4 Felgen, 265/35/18 und 285/30/18 Michelin cup2 Reifen, recaro pp Sitze, Karbonius Dach, Original csl Teile, csl Airbox, Cp Kolben und carillo Pleuel, vollstahl Kurbelwelle, Schrick 304/296 12.5mm nockenwellen, vanos, Supertech Federnsatz und ventile, Kopfbearbeitung, 12.0 CR, Arp stehbolzen, 1340kg Gewicht inkl Flüssigkeiten.

Bmw e46 m3 with 3.5 liter long racing stroker engine, perfectly built by Motorsporttechnik Mandel. Complete supersprint aga, mk racing technology suction storage etc. Mishimoto cooler package, BBS gt4 rims, 265/35/18 and 285/30/18 Michelin cup2 tires, recaro pp seats, carbon roof, original csl parts, csl airbox, cp pistons and carillo Connecting rod, full steel crankshaft, Schrick 304/296 12.5mm camshafts, vanos, Supertech spring set and valves, head machining, 12.0 CR, Arp studs, 1340kg weight including liquids.

July 8, 2017
Bmw e46 m3 mit 3.5l Rennmotor von Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation mit langracing Development. 392.7ps bei 31grad umgebungstemperatur mit csl Serien Steuerung ohne Modifikationen nachdem dem Motor knapp 2000km eingefahren wurde. Nun wird abgestimmt und man darf gespannt sein was rum kommt an Leistungsdaten.

Bmw e46 m3 with 3.5l racing engine from Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation with langracing development. 392.7ps at 31 degrees ambient temperature with csl series control without modifications after the engine was run in almost 2000km. Now it is voted and you can be curious about what comes around in performance data.


Aug 18, 2017
E46 m3 mit 3.5l rennsport Motor von Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation mit Langracing gebaut. 440ps 400n/m mit 304/296 im Winter wird auf 288/280 umgebaut um in etwa 40nm mehr Drehmoment zu holen. Die 100-200 mit racelogic 10.5sek mit 265/35/18 und 285/30/18 cup2 Reifen mit 1.9bar kalt.

E46 m3 with 3.5l racing engine built by Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation with long racing. 440ps 400n / m with 304/296 in winter is converted to 288/280 to get about 40nm more torque. The 100-200 with racelogic 10.5sec with 265/35/18 and 285/30/18 cup2 tires with 1.9bar cold.

From embedded comment:
With the old setup I did 3000km, now I do rebuild the engine with 288/280 Camshafts instead of 304/296, cp pistons with wpc treatment and 12.5CR instead of 12cr and moly coating, complete ported CHP Cylinder head, ported Itbs, Karbonius special made airbox with enlarged trumpets for my application, csl exhaust valves and a few other mods. The engine is totally reliable no question, I'm taking crazy care of balancing all the internal parts to perfection, crank 0gr, piston assembly 0.00gr and also rods assembly 0.00gr tolerance.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNb...Bpp_aUG7NRR4sQ

Ok this is good info, thanks jbfrancis3. Ill check this out. With 304/296 he is running 433 hp and 324 foot pounds of tq. Is this to the wheels, it must be to to the flywheel. are CSL exhaust valves oversized? if so I believe you have to remove vanos

[davke]

Is anyone running their E46 M3 with higher than stock 11.5:1 compression on pump gas (not E85)? An inquiring mind wants to know.

Feff

what's the point? knock faktors start doing their job with ignition timing ramdomly

[jbfrancis3]

There is youtube acct named 'Teufelswerk' who has a few videos on his 3.5L stroker. Little bits of info here & there, including a camshaft revision. I'm assuming he is quoting whp.

I'm placing the description from 3 of his videos in German/English (using google translation):

Jun 16, 2017
Bmw e46 m3 mit 3.5 Liter langracing stroker Motor, perfekt gebaut von Motorsporttechnik Mandel. Komplette supersprint aga, mk Rennsporttechnik Ansaugung Lagerung etc. Mishimoto kühlerpaket, BBS gt4 Felgen, 265/35/18 und 285/30/18 Michelin cup2 Reifen, recaro pp Sitze, Karbonius Dach, Original csl Teile, csl Airbox, Cp Kolben und carillo Pleuel, vollstahl Kurbelwelle, Schrick 304/296 12.5mm nockenwellen, vanos, Supertech Federnsatz und ventile, Kopfbearbeitung, 12.0 CR, Arp stehbolzen, 1340kg Gewicht inkl Flüssigkeiten.

Bmw e46 m3 with 3.5 liter long racing stroker engine, perfectly built by Motorsporttechnik Mandel. Complete supersprint aga, mk racing technology suction storage etc. Mishimoto cooler package, BBS gt4 rims, 265/35/18 and 285/30/18 Michelin cup2 tires, recaro pp seats, carbon roof, original csl parts, csl airbox, cp pistons and carillo Connecting rod, full steel crankshaft, Schrick 304/296 12.5mm camshafts, vanos, Supertech spring set and valves, head machining, 12.0 CR, Arp studs, 1340kg weight including liquids.

July 8, 2017
Bmw e46 m3 mit 3.5l Rennmotor von Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation mit langracing Development. 392.7ps bei 31grad umgebungstemperatur mit csl Serien Steuerung ohne Modifikationen nachdem dem Motor knapp 2000km eingefahren wurde. Nun wird abgestimmt und man darf gespannt sein was rum kommt an Leistungsdaten.

Bmw e46 m3 with 3.5l racing engine from Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation with langracing development. 392.7ps at 31 degrees ambient temperature with csl series control without modifications after the engine was run in almost 2000km. Now it is voted and you can be curious about what comes around in performance data.


Aug 18, 2017
E46 m3 mit 3.5l rennsport Motor von Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation mit Langracing gebaut. 440ps 400n/m mit 304/296 im Winter wird auf 288/280 umgebaut um in etwa 40nm mehr Drehmoment zu holen. Die 100-200 mit racelogic 10.5sek mit 265/35/18 und 285/30/18 cup2 Reifen mit 1.9bar kalt.

E46 m3 with 3.5l racing engine built by Motorsporttechnik Mandel in cooperation with long racing. 440ps 400n / m with 304/296 in winter is converted to 288/280 to get about 40nm more torque. The 100-200 with racelogic 10.5sec with 265/35/18 and 285/30/18 cup2 tires with 1.9bar cold.

From embedded comment:
With the old setup I did 3000km, now I do rebuild the engine with 288/280 Camshafts instead of 304/296, cp pistons with wpc treatment and 12.5CR instead of 12cr and moly coating, complete ported CHP Cylinder head, ported Itbs, Karbonius special made airbox with enlarged trumpets for my application, csl exhaust valves and a few other mods. The engine is totally reliable no question, I'm taking crazy care of balancing all the internal parts to perfection, crank 0gr, piston assembly 0.00gr and also rods assembly 0.00gr tolerance.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNb...Bpp_aUG7NRR4sQ

[digger]

Is anyone running their E46 M3 with higher than stock 11.5:1 compression on pump gas (not E85)? An inquiring mind wants to know.

Feff

seen some running 12:1 on 93

[Tbonem3]

its a legimate approach to take the parts e.g. crank , rods and pistons to a reputable machine shop and they will assess parts provided supply appropriate bearing etc and then machine and assemble or whatver you want thats how alot of places work. They will tell if part are appropriate or not and take liability for their work.

Like usual, digger's correct.

Others seem to be confusing it with taking some internet bought parts to a local indy.

[Feffman]

Is anyone running their E46 M3 with higher than stock 11.5:1 compression on pump gas (not E85)? An inquiring mind wants to know.

Feff

[digger]

That is a recipe for disaster and most engine builders won't like it, they also won't warranty it and expect a lot of finger pointing if anything ever goes wrong.

With a engine build, you want it done right with the least amount of variables. Pick 1 builder, discuss specs, let them handle/source the complete build.

its a legimate approach to take the parts e.g. crank , rods and pistons to a reputable machine shop and they will assess parts provided supply appropriate bearing etc and then machine and assemble or whatver you want thats how alot of places work. They will tell if part are appropriate or not and take liability for their work.

[oceansize]

...I’m hoping I’ll be able to consult him in my build without him making me pay...

😂🤩🤔

Quality people in any line of work have zero time for that.

[jvit27]

If Fletcher is involved you're about to spend 3 times the KBB value of your car on an engine. That will probs last a few seasons. Tops.

Not an informed response but ok.

I’m going to try and our source the majority of components myself, then just have him do some custom work, and put my bottom block together.
I’m hoping I’ll be able to consult him in my build without him making me pay, Id figure it’s around 10k for the majority of parts, the only thing I would really want him to do is block work like bore it then, balance and assemble it.
then again that may be tough, and he might not do that. I’m not trying to write out a $20k check when we can outsource and save $3k and slowly buy and add parts and just pay for one off custom parts and labor.
Everyhting should be completed and swapped into a car by December, I have time and out sourcing will just be cheaper and work better to save money and to not waste it on one big check.
i would hope someone like fletcher would understand and be ok with that, but I’ve never dealt with engine builders or much with this industry before.

This is categorically the WRONG way to build an engine. Anyone who knows what they are doing won't want this job. Why would they assume the liability so you can save a few dollars?
Sorry but the approach is a penny wise and a pound foolish, and you are probably the 1000th guy would would expect Chris to do this.

That is a recipe for disaster and most engine builders won't like it, they also won't warranty it and expect a lot of finger pointing if anything ever goes wrong.

With a engine build, you want it done right with the least amount of variables. Pick 1 builder, discuss specs, let them handle/source the complete build.

THIS 1000%.

[tdott]

Yeah I figured that would happen, I want to spend as little as I can at once, I will most likely ask to slowly piece things together, then once all the parts are done, I'll have them build it. I would assume that'll work

Speak to the builder you are planning to go with and see what they say about that.
Be warned, a lot of things can go wrong through no fault of your own, but it can leave you with incorrect parts, a motor that doesn't spin freely, or a blown motor, etc ,etc.

Everyone thinks they can do it, but this is an area that requires precision and skill, not everyone can do it right, not everyone has the skills even when they say they do, others have warned you of the multiple builds that have gone sideways and how they fail.