Karbonius Carbon Fibre Stock S54 Plenum

[///MBan]

Quick update: Karbonius hopes to start this project in May.

[E46 M3]

Just out of curiously, what would this look like

Go lift your hood and take a look at the stock plastic box, now imagine it it in carbon fibre.

[TosM3]

Just out of curiously, what would this look like

[///MBan]

Karbonius has confirmed they will make a test plenum to check the viability of the project. There is no timeline yet as they need to see if any of the parts from their CSL intake can be carried across. I’ll post an update when I have more information.

[///MBan]

We have reached 20 EOI! I will contact Karbonius to work out next steps.

I’ll still add more EOI - the more the better.

For reference, the EOI list is here:

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900559

[///MBan]

There is a tuner who does this actually. He is redoing my tune and he uses the integrated wide band sensors to adjust the calibration. I have a Karb airbox, and would still try a carbon replica just to try something new. If not worth it, i can always go back to Karb or even OE.

This is kind of my approach as well. The older the S54 gets, the fewer 'new' aftermarket parts will be produced. I'm not planning on selling my Z4, so I'm keen to try out options while I can to find that sweet spot of driver enjoyment with as little compromise as possible.

[maupineda]

Sounds like the real move for the Z4M would be to find a tuner that could get wideband O2s functioning correctly... but that's probably beyond the scope of effort that anyone wants to put into a low production numbers car.

There is a tuner who does this actually. He is redoing my tune and he uses the integrated wide band sensors to adjust the calibration. I have a Karb airbox, and would still try a carbon replica just to try something new. If not worth it, i can always go back to Karb or even OE.

[///MBan]

My guess is post #12 - https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786101

That’s the thread that led to the idea of a carbon reproduction of the stock plenum. Some really good discussion from the Z4 perspective.

Another reason for me is that deleting the MAF is illegal in Western Australia. And adding a whopping CF intake is a pretty obvious change, unlike software alone, which is also illegal, so if your car gets checked you are in trouble. At best you are required to change back to stock, at worst you’re given a five figure fine. The overall chances of getting caught are low but I’d prefer not to have to worry about it.

[Slideways]

In that case, I’m confused— why not use a normal CSL box?

My guess is post #12 - https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786101

[Obioban]

See Martyn's (Martyn's MSS54 tool?) post - https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132481

"It has a pair of wideband O2s fitted as stock... You'll be fine with that! I use the stock WB when logging / tuning without issue... Dashcommand runs via an app on your phone etc so no need for a laptop, the data will be real time."

In that case, I’m confused— why not use a normal CSL box?

[Slideways]

Sounds like the real move for the Z4M would be to find a tuner that could get wideband O2s functioning correctly... but that's probably beyond the scope of effort that anyone wants to put into a low production numbers car.

See Martyn's (Martyn's MSS54 tool?) post - https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132481

"It has a pair of wideband O2s fitted as stock... You'll be fine with that! I use the stock WB when logging / tuning without issue... Dashcommand runs via an app on your phone etc so no need for a laptop, the data will be real time."

[Obioban]

Posted by terra:

"MSS70 is much closer to the MSV70 used in the N52 cars. Has very little relation to the MSS60 and MSS65 in the M3 and M5. There really isn't much code to truly support a MAP sensor, it'd have to be fairly custom. That said, a well tuned alpha-N MSS70 would likely run better than a CSL MSS54HP. Largely thanks to the use of wide-band O2 sensors. And in fact, some euro N52 cars are alpha-N from the factory and you cannot distinguish them from their MAF counterparts - they run that well."

Based on what he said and also the tech docs (both E9X and CSL) stating the MAP is more of a backup sensor for limp mode (ex. tps failure), I would not waste time or $ on this stock carbon airbox. Well worth trying the CSL airbox and having someone like PCS tune it.

Sounds like the real move for the Z4M would be to find a tuner that could get wideband O2s functioning correctly... but that's probably beyond the scope of effort that anyone wants to put into a low production numbers car.

[Slideways]

Posted by terra:

"MSS70 is much closer to the MSV70 used in the N52 cars. Has very little relation to the MSS60 and MSS65 in the M3 and M5. There really isn't much code to truly support a MAP sensor, it'd have to be fairly custom. That said, a well tuned alpha-N MSS70 would likely run better than a CSL MSS54HP. Largely thanks to the use of wide-band O2 sensors. And in fact, some euro N52 cars are alpha-N from the factory and you cannot distinguish them from their MAF counterparts - they run that well."

Based on what he said and also the tech docs (both E9X and CSL) stating the MAP is more of a backup sensor for limp mode (ex. tps failure), I would not waste time or $ on this stock carbon airbox. Well worth trying the CSL airbox and having someone like PCS tune it.

[Obioban]

Correct, for us, it is either the carbon replica for a MAF setup or Alpha-N. I have the latter and the car does not have the same caveats as E46 as the Z4 has a better Alpha-N strategy, or so I was told. I even asked if we can add a MAP sensor since the MSS70 is based on MSV70 which can run a MAP sensor. My tuner says the performance gains between MAF and Alpha-N are negligible and not worth the hassle to make a MAP setup work, but he thinks MAF is better in that the car would be fully capable to compensate for hardware variances in aging, performance, etc.

A Carbon replica of the OE box, plus eventuri may be the best of both, expensive, but since when S54 tuning has been cheap :P

I think you might have exchanged an "MAP" and "MAF" in there somewhere, but responding to what I think you're point was-- there shouldn't be any difference in drivability with MAF vs MAP. S65 actually moved moved from MAF to MAP in all e9X M3s.

That said, MAFless/MAPless does not work well over a variety of conditions. For Z4M owners, no MAP option exists, so they only have MAPless Alpha N or MAF-- in that circumstance I'd want a MAF. But, on the e46, where the MAP option exists, with full factory backing (CSL)... no desire for a MAF from me.

There isn't a performance gain from the tuning side of Alpha N, MAF, or MAP in the tuned for conditions-- the reason to not want straight Alpha N is so that the car drives correctly, regardless of environmental conditions. The CSL/MAP or stock MAF based setup both allow for that.

On otherwise modded up cars (full exhaust/cams), the CSL airbox is good for ~10hp. My guess, because I don't see any other explanation, would be that that is due to the elimination of the MAF tubing/etc. So, seems like a worse choice on the e46, to me.

[maupineda]

I feel like this is a better notion for the Z4M people, because they can't run the MAP sensor/tune -- they're stuck with straight Alpha N. For us, there's no issue in getting it to run correctly using the MAP setup.

Correct, for us, it is either the carbon replica for a MAF setup or Alpha-N. I have the latter and the car does not have the same caveats as E46 as the Z4 has a better Alpha-N strategy, or so I was told. I even asked if we can add a MAP sensor since the MSS70 is based on MSV70 which can run a MAP sensor. My tuner says the performance gains between MAF and Alpha-N are negligible and not worth the hassle to make a MAP setup work, but he thinks MAF is better in that the car would be fully capable to compensate for hardware variances in aging, performance, etc.

A Carbon replica of the OE box, plus eventuri may be the best of both, expensive, but since when S54 tuning has been cheap :P