MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[Bry5on]

I just looked at the diagrams, apparently the Z3M and E46 M3 MK20s are the same, that would lead me to believe an E46 M3 MK60 would work correctly in a swap.

So off the top of my head if I was doing this then I would use the E46 M3 DSC, Z3 M54 master cylinder, booster and pressures sensors (in the M/C) and then wire it like an M54 car.

***This is very similar to my car. I have E46 M3 brakes, E46 330 M/C and Booster, but I have the 330 DSC right now, although the M3 DSC is on the shelf to be swapped in and then it would conceptually be the same setup as Shawns Z3M.

No real reason to swap to the M3 DSC - you can manually flash M3 settings to the non-m if you’re good with NCS expert. Using a Z3 (same as e46 non-m) MK60 would make it less of a hassle as the important options like brake bias and steering ratio can be set more easily in NCS, then you can follow this guide to enable the fancy stuff like m-track: https://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/show...or-non-M-MK60s

[Obioban]

I've never felt the need to track the car with DSC on, so I've never really desired m track mode.
The E46 M3 is not overpowered by any means...

Doesn't mean that others may not feel different. Just my opinion...

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Yeah— I said m track mode for street driving. Adding M track mode allowed me to stop being annoyed by DSC on the street, which meant I stopped turning it off. A pretty legit safety increase!

(and ice mode still activates on track with DSC off)

[Nate047]

+1. Option 3 is the best one if your rear brake lines are in good shape. Most annoying part of it will be bending the new front lines, but they're relatively short so it's not too terrible.

The rear hard lines are "alright," they are not new but they are not leaking or having issues either. So yea, in hindsight, of course I *should* have done this when the rear end and gas tank were all out of the car, and done the brake pipes too. But life happened and I had to rush to put the car back together and move house.

[Nate047]

I still advocate what is described as option 3. It's actually not difficult, just time consuming.

For the pep talk: It's winter now, so not really driving time, best time to hit this.

If it makes you feel better, you got my number. Feel free to call if you feel lost. 😉

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I'm going to just commit and do it, after I get my e36 back on the road I will have the room. I don't have a lot of spare time with a 3 month old at home LOL but I can chip away at things. And I will definitely not hesitate to bug you with questions when they come up

[George Hill]

I just looked at the diagrams, apparently the Z3M and E46 M3 MK20s are the same, that would lead me to believe an E46 M3 MK60 would work correctly in a swap.

So off the top of my head if I was doing this then I would use the E46 M3 DSC, Z3 M54 master cylinder, booster and pressures sensors (in the M/C) and then wire it like an M54 car.

***This is very similar to my car. I have E46 M3 brakes, E46 330 M/C and Booster, but I have the 330 DSC right now, although the M3 DSC is on the shelf to be swapped in and then it would conceptually be the same setup as Shawns Z3M.

[George Hill]

Regardless, MK20 feels like a 3 channel system. Rear dances around a LOT under heavy ABS braking compared to MK60. That was by far the biggest difference I felt after the swap.

I don't disagree with your position of the MK60 being worthwhile over the MK20. I just wasn't sure if the difference in using an MK60 Z3 Non-M would be beneficial over an MK20 Z3M to go through all the work to retrofit and it potentially not playing nice with the car. I mean I don't think it will be an issue, but what if it is? Is the juice worth the squeeze since we don't have anything to compare it to like we do on an MK20 vs 60 M3. Along with that I was more so asking if there were any specific inherent issues with the Z3M MK20 (like "Ice Mode" on an E46).

[bmwfnatic]

All US non-M E46 pre '01 production and (IIRC '01 model 330s) got MK20

I see, in Europe it was an option and 9/10 didn’t opt to pay for DSC.
So those cars don’t have anything in that bin and the module is in the MK60 location.

[heinzboehmer]

Can we get a recap on what the easiest and most bare bones way to do this retrofit is

I still advocate what is described as option 3. It's actually not difficult, just time consuming.

+1. Option 3 is the best one if your rear brake lines are in good shape. Most annoying part of it will be bending the new front lines, but they're relatively short so it's not too terrible.

MK20 is 4 channel as well.

Yep, you're totally right. Not sure why I had that in my mind.

Regardless, MK20 feels like a 3 channel system. Rear dances around a LOT under heavy ABS braking compared to MK60. That was by far the biggest difference I felt after the swap.

[George Hill]

MK20 non-M is kind of rare, they exist only from 09/1999 until 09/2000 when someone specifically ordered DSC for the car, instead of default ASC.
Makes me wonder why BMW decided to keep the M3 on this system for 2 more years, when the non M already had the MK60.

All US non-M E46 pre '01 production and (IIRC '01 model 330s) got MK20

[bmwfnatic]

MK20 is 4 channel as well.




Having owned an S54 roadster and an MK20 car (that became S54) swapped I wonder how much of that is Z3M specific? The Z3M was always on the verge of out of control at the limit I felt like as the short wheel base really doesn't lend itself to many "mistakes."

I tracked my MK20 car when it was M52tu/6MT and it wasn't ever an issue for me, and once S54 swapped with the M3 MK20 I never noticed an issue on the street.

Its to bad there isn't an easy way to test the Z3M back to back with the MK20 vs MK60.

MK20 non-M is kind of rare, they exist only from 09/1999 until 09/2000 when someone specifically ordered DSC for the car, instead of default ASC.
Makes me wonder why BMW decided to keep the M3 on this system for 2 more years, when the non M already had the MK60.

[George Hill]

However, I would argue that the 4 vs 3 channel ABS is enough reason to justify this swap.

MK20 is 4 channel as well.

1, mk20 intervenes way too early and too much for anything remotely close to spirited driving. The turn in steering with a little acceleration mk20 intervenes top much.... so with any close to spirited driving you pretty much have to just disable DSC all the time so it's annoying to have to just press that button when you get in the car.

Having owned an S54 roadster and an MK20 car (that became S54) swapped I wonder how much of that is Z3M specific? The Z3M was always on the verge of out of control at the limit I felt like as the short wheel base really doesn't lend itself to many "mistakes."

I tracked my MK20 car when it was M52tu/6MT and it wasn't ever an issue for me, and once S54 swapped with the M3 MK20 I never noticed an issue on the street.

Its to bad there isn't an easy way to test the Z3M back to back with the MK20 vs MK60.

[nextelbuddy]

What do you hope to gain with the conversion? In other words, what dificiencies in the MK20 setup are you trying to address?

Couple reasons,


1, mk20 intervenes way too early and too much for anything remotely close to spirited driving. The turn in steering with a little acceleration mk20 intervenes top much.... so with any close to spirited driving you pretty much have to just disable DSC all the time so it's annoying to have to just press that button when you get in the car.

2. Better technology in the mk60

3. S54 mk60 clownshoe would be neat

My buddy is still weighing his options. We're looking at the pros and cons of everything looking at the difficulty level versus what we're doing now and considering his current z3m coupe is an s52 car with ASC... If we're already trying to retrofit mk20 into it, why not go the extra mile for mk60?


- Looks like we can keep the mk20 booster and MC with the dual pressure sensors
- snag a brake fluid reservoir from an mk60 Z3 car with the integrated brake level sensor (maybe just get the mk60 booster and master cylinder from the same Z3, trying to stY cost effective)
- maybe even grab the brake lines from a mk60 z3 car if we can find one in the junkyard
- source an mk60 z3 module just to have the z3 chassis specific coding that the E46 modules don't have

Since he will be using an S54 z3 cluster, then mk60 Should have no problems talking to the cluster via can bus since the MK20 did the same thing.

Coding the module is no problem with NCS expert. Lots of ways to do that with modified parameters

[Altaran]

Every time this thread gets bumped I look at this box in my garage. Taunting me. Mocking me.

Can we get a recap on what the easiest and most bare bones way to do this retrofit is?

And maybe a little pep talk, tell me it's not so bad of a job.

I still advocate what is described as option 3. It's actually not difficult, just time consuming.

For the pep talk: It's winter now, so not really driving time, best time to hit this.

If it makes you feel better, you got my number. Feel free to call if you feel lost. 😉

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[Nate047]

Every time this thread gets bumped I look at this box in my garage. Taunting me. Mocking me.

Can we get a recap on what the easiest and most bare bones way to do this retrofit is?

And maybe a little pep talk, tell me it's not so bad of a job.

[Altaran]

Yeah m track mode is fairly useless for me too. If I'm going fast enough in the canyons to have DSC intervene, then I am probably going way too fast for public roads...

However, I would argue that the 4 vs 3 channel ABS is enough reason to justify this swap. MK60 is way, way more stable when ABS intervenes, which is a legitimate safety upgrade in all driving scenarios.

Agreed on the point of intervention, it's also my experience from swapping that the MK60 intervention feels a lot softer and unsettles the car not as much.

Additionally the shorter brake lines from MC to ABS give a better response.

Don't know if I would justify this for the swap effort though.

Funny enough my race MK60 has a pin that when grounded makes the intervention harsher. The guy told me all the race teams want this, as the drivers want to know exactly when abs starts intervening so they can adjust their braking point to prevent abs intervention.
I have not tried it yet though. Probably nothing I would want to use on roads. 😂

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