MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[heinzboehmer]

I've never felt the need to track the car with DSC on, so I've never really desired m track mode.

Yeah m track mode is fairly useless for me too. If I'm going fast enough in the canyons to have DSC intervene, then I am probably going way too fast for public roads...

However, I would argue that the 4 vs 3 channel ABS is enough reason to justify this swap. MK60 is way, way more stable when ABS intervenes, which is a legitimate safety upgrade in all driving scenarios.

[Altaran]

I don't really agree with either side of that.

M track mode is perfect for back road bombing without disabling the safety net, and MK20 has a legit safety issue with ice mode on track creating a near no brake situation.

I've never felt the need to track the car with DSC on, so I've never really desired m track mode.
The E46 M3 is not overpowered by any means...

Doesn't mean that others may not feel different. Just my opinion...

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[Obioban]

Correct. Even tracking a car close to stock an MK20 will work fine. Did it for years.
It only becomes really worth it when your car is heavily modified and you tweak the abs settings (aka flash different software).

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I don’t really agree with either side of that.

M track mode is perfect for back road bombing without disabling the safety net, and MK20 has a legit safety issue with ice mode on track creating a near no brake situation.

[Altaran]

Code it for a late Z3 that had MK60 from the factory (01, 02 non-M)

Would be interesting to see from someone that owns a Z3M if the cluster is codeable for MK60 or if you have to swap in a non M cluster...

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[Altaran]

Isn't the MK60 really only an upgrade if your tracking the car? For daily driving the MK20 from my understanding is still very good.

Correct. Even tracking a car close to stock an MK20 will work fine. Did it for years.
It only becomes really worth it when your car is heavily modified and you tweak the abs settings (aka flash different software).

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[Cronenberged]

Isn’t the MK60 really only an upgrade if your tracking the car? For daily driving the MK20 from my understanding is still very good.

[George Hill]

Considering upgrading mk20 z3 S54 car for a friend To mk60.

What do you hope to gain with the conversion? In other words, what dificiencies in the MK20 setup are you trying to address?

[Bry5on]

The booster and MC will work fine, that's not going to be your major issue. Most issue will be software integration. Since the Z3 never came equipped with it, you can't just code a newer ABS system, the option simply won't exist afaik. Engine ECU may be able to handle it, but the cluster won't, so speedo may not work properly and all abs and brake warning lights will light up.

Also there may be some real safety concerns, there is no factory MK60 abs programming to cover the Z3's chassis characteristics. Different weight, suspension, aerodynamic values etc.

The best bet would be to get a flasheable unit (CSL/zcp) and have someone with experience flash a proper software on it. And then work on the software integration with the other modules in the car.
Option two is a standalone unit, which will be cheaper than CSL, but you will loose DSC. Software integration will still be an issue.

Don't get me wrong, it's far from impossible. But you should know what you're getting yourself into.

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Code it for a late Z3 that had MK60 from the factory (01, 02 non-M)

[Altaran]

Considering upgrading mk20 z3 S54 car for a friend To mk60

Since there was no mk60 MC and booster, wonder if we can get away with just reusing the MK20 pump since it still has the 2 pressure sensors.

Since mk20 is on drive side side already, I planned on just depinning the mk20 body side connector and pinning into the mk60 connector the matching wires and add missing wires etc.

The booster and MC will work fine, that's not going to be your major issue. Most issue will be software integration. Since the Z3 never came equipped with it, you can't just code a newer ABS system, the option simply won't exist afaik. Engine ECU may be able to handle it, but the cluster won't, so speedo may not work properly and all abs and brake warning lights will light up.

Also there may be some real safety concerns, there is no factory MK60 abs programming to cover the Z3's chassis characteristics. Different weight, suspension, aerodynamic values etc.

The best bet would be to get a flasheable unit (CSL/zcp) and have someone with experience flash a proper software on it. And then work on the software integration with the other modules in the car.
Option two is a standalone unit, which will be cheaper than CSL, but you will loose DSC. Software integration will still be an issue.

Don't get me wrong, it's far from impossible. But you should know what you're getting yourself into.

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[nextelbuddy]

Considering upgrading mk20 z3 S54 car for a friend To mk60

Since there was no mk60 MC and booster, wonder if we can get away with just reusing the MK20 pump since it still has the 2 pressure sensors.

Since mk20 is on drive side side already, I planned on just depinning the mk20 body side connector and pinning into the mk60 connector the matching wires and add missing wires etc.

[heinzboehmer]

Traction Control:

This is the bit that I felt was most similar between the two modules. Traction control seems to come on at about the same threshold and allows about the same amount of spin. The one difference is that the MK60 intervention seems a bit more gradual. On the MK20, you can feel the entirely drivetrain clunking and jerking around whenever power is cut. This feeling is still there with the MK60, but it's less aggressive. Hard gear shifts with cold tires still result in the same level of annoyance when you forget to turn DSC off, though.

Actually, I think I may have to take some of this back. Still matches my experience in dry weather, but it's been rainy over here recently and the systems seem to behave differently on low grip surfaces.

I have to go off of memory for the comparison, so comparing against a fairly inaccurate source, but I think I'm pretty sure the MK60 allows a good amount more slip than the MK20 on slippery surfaces. If I floor it in first at ~3k rpm (in the wet), the tires will immediately lose traction, but the system won't intervene until 5-5.5k rpm. With the MK20, the intervention was almost instant and much more violent.

When I used to drive in the snow (MK20), I had to turn traction control off, otherwise the car was undrivable. The system would not allow any amount of slip and I was unable to get moving in most situations (car was excellent with DSC off in the snow, btw). I think the MK60 would be much more usable there.

Regardless, this is a very small difference that will probably not be tangible in most everyday driving situations, but thought I'd point it out since I noticed it.

Also, finally going back to Thunderhill in early April, so should be able to run a better experiment with the same setup as when I had the MK60 (except for some weight from seats).

[George Hill]

Lol it was not an easy thing to do. Would have been much easier and much faster to remove the dash and do it properly, but once again, stupid tiny garage.

I should have said ....impressed that you were ABLE to, lol

[heinzboehmer]

Great write-up!

Thankfully my '03 already has MK60 but this thread led me to discovering M-mode in my car. I made good use of it last weekend at the track.

Thanks! Glad it was useful.

I'm now even more impressed that you ran that giant connector through the dash, lol.

Lol it was not an easy thing to do. Would have been much easier and much faster to remove the dash and do it properly, but once again, stupid tiny garage.

Also, it would have been significantly easier if I had made the harness ~0.5m longer. The connector was thin enough that I could fit it between the part of the dash next to the shifter and the trans tunnel if I pulled on the dash slightly. So basically would have just needed to get it to the pedal area, then in and out of the shifter area and then to the glove box area. After that, just stuff the wire bundle under the edges of the dash and done. But I totally misjudged the geometry of the HVAC unit on the passenger side, which caused me to make the harness too short (I thought I was going to be able to pass the harness behind the HVAC unit) and forced me to feed the connector in that ridiculous way.

[George Hill]

I'm now even more impressed that you ran that giant connector through the dash, lol.

[zzyzx85]

Great write-up!

Thankfully my '03 already has MK60 but this thread led me to discovering M-mode in my car. I made good use of it last weekend at the track.