MK20 -> MK60 Swap

[heinzboehmer]

This also reminded me that I never posted an update about how I ran my harness through the interior. Don't want to add this to the original posts because it ended up being a bit less elegant than I had planned. The proper way to do it involved removing the dash and HVAC, so I decided against doing it that way. I did post a bunch of pics and descriptions in my journal on how I did it, so I'll just link that instead: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...386#post193386

[heinzboehmer]

I keep telling myself that I am not doing this and it's not worth it for how I use my car but I keep finding myself going through every detail in the thread because I think subconsciously I've decided I am going to do it. Especially since finding out it might be possible to do with a non-m MK60...

I wonder how different it will be given my car is RHD? I think more or less the process will be the same, since the ABS unit itself still has to swap sides, but the brake booster and reservoir don't move with RHD cars. No doubt I'll come crying to you in DMs if I ever try this and get stuck lol

Hmm, did some super quick youtube research and it seems like everything is on opposite sides for RHD cars. Electronics get moved to the other side of the engine, so you would still need to do some messing around with the harness. However, it's possible that the MK20 harness starts in the spot as in LHD cars (engine exhaust side) and then just goes behind the dash and out into the engine bay (engine intake side). If so, you could cut off the excess harness and repin the wires into the MK60 connector. Should be easy to check if this is the case by pulling the glove box and peeling the carpet that's against the firewall back to see if the harness is there and goes behind the dash or if it comes from a completely different spot.

MK20 has the booster, master cylinder and accumulator on the engine exhaust side and the valve core and electronics on the engine intake side (https://youtu.be/m5nBrBjFC1o?t=329). There appear to be three lines running behind the engine (but it's kinda hard to see so you should confirm this), two from the two circuits of the master cylinder to the valve core and one from the valve core to the FR caliper.

MK60 has the booster, master cylinder, valve core and electronics (no accumulator for MK60) all on the engine exhaust side (https://youtu.be/pTAq23HtkpI?t=373). There are also three lines running behind the engine, but the uses are different. Two are from the valve core to the rear calipers and one is from the valve core to FL caliper.

This is actually great news if you want to cheat! You can probably get away with removing all the MK20 stuff, except for the three lines behind the engine and then installing all the MK60 stuff. From there, you can cut and splice the existing three lines to repurpose them for the MK60. Will probably be easiest to bend a new line for the FR caliper. Essentially, the cheat is to keep the sections of line behind the engine and cut them around the strut tower areas. Then make new lines to splice in and connect where they need to go (FL caliper and junctions to rear lines by gearbox). Not sure if it's worth doing this vs just bending three entire new lines, but it's an option.

I guess a very similar thing is applicable to LHD cars. Keep one of the lines that runs behind the engine and splice into it for the line from valve core to FL caliper. The amount of work this will save vs bending an entire new line is probably marginal, so I would personally just replace the entire thing on LHD cars.

[Thoglan]

I keep telling myself that I am not doing this and it's not worth it for how I use my car but I keep finding myself going through every detail in the thread because I think subconsciously I've decided I am going to do it. Especially since finding out it might be possible to do with a non-m MK60...

I wonder how different it will be given my car is RHD? I think more or less the process will be the same, since the ABS unit itself still has to swap sides, but the brake booster and reservoir don't move with RHD cars. No doubt I'll come crying to you in DMs if I ever try this and get stuck lol

[heinzboehmer]

I do wonder if the real CSL/ZCP module's M-track is any different in this regard. I should have done some scientific testing when I made the switch myself.

For that matter, I wonder about the ABS difference too with the real CSL/ZCP module. I have always read claims that it's different, but I just don't have enough seat time at the limits to say if there's a real difference.

With the ABS difference being that pronounced between the MK20 and MK60, that makes me even more curious about the MK60e5, MK100, and the actual race modules. Especially since one of the innovations with the MK60e5 is supposed to be "analog" control of the abs solenoids, which coupled with the independent pressure sensors makes me think the ABS behavior during turns could be even better

For street situations, basically MK60 is our best available "upgrade". With Z4 variant of the MK60e5 perhaps offering a little more. In that particular case I don't think there would be an issue with brake bias and whatnot, given the Z4M and ZCP/CSL have literally the same brakes

Yeah, like you said, I think the Z4M module is probably the ultimate upgrade. Those independent pressure sensors really tempt me.

I'll definitely swap one in if I ever find one at a junkyard or part out. Not dying to spend $600+ for the units I've seen on eBay.

I suppose I’m just grasping at reasons to not do this job because it seems like a fairly big pain in the ass and/or expense to shop out.

Share some pics if you do end up doing it!

I'm sure you didn't have to try hard to be stupid...BOOM! haha...too easy.

Trail braking aside, most common situation is when the braking zone isn't straight or there is a kink right before a braking zone. I used to try and position the car to make it as straight as possible through the braking zone so I would lift or not come into the turn on full throttle. The reasoning is I can get on the brakes more because the car is straight and has more grip for stopping. Now, I am willing threshold brake through a kink so I can hold the throttle off a straight longer. You have to have some touch on the brakes, can't just jam on the pedal. BUT...you can apply quite a bit of brake force and ABS will help.

Just like you add throttle exiting, you build up braking as you enter. It's not the normal full brake and then trail off.

See video...skip to 6:18. Turning and braking. Now its just a matter of balls...I can go a couple more car lengths into the turn before braking. Easy .5 second there.

Lol yeah I made that too easy for you.

And cool, I've been reading stuff and watching videos about it and it makes sense. Thanks for your video too, it's useful to see it in action. Now just need to get out on the track and practice.

damn, want to rewire mine now?

I think I might pass, once was enough!

But if you (or anyone) does end up going through with this and builds a similar adapter harness, let me know. I still have extra PCBs that I can throw into an envelope and send out. Can also throw the gerbers up somewhere if anyone wants them.

[ra2fanatic]

damn, want to rewire mine now?

[bigjae46]

Didn't mean it to sound like that's something you NEVER want to do in a car, but you should probably not do it the way I was doing it. When I tried this I was basically trying to be as stupid as possible. i.e. Sharp and not smooth turn of the wheel and hard slam on the brakes. Was just trying to upset the car as much as possible to see how the system responded. To my surprise it did pretty well.

I'm sure you didn't have to try hard to be stupid...BOOM! haha...too easy.

Trail braking aside, most common situation is when the braking zone isn't straight or there is a kink right before a braking zone. I used to try and position the car to make it as straight as possible through the braking zone so I would lift or not come into the turn on full throttle. The reasoning is I can get on the brakes more because the car is straight and has more grip for stopping. Now, I am willing threshold brake through a kink so I can hold the throttle off a straight longer. You have to have some touch on the brakes, can't just jam on the pedal. BUT...you can apply quite a bit of brake force and ABS will help.

Just like you add throttle exiting, you build up braking as you enter. It's not the normal full brake and then trail off.

See video...skip to 6:18. Turning and braking. Now its just a matter of balls...I can go a couple more car lengths into the turn before braking. Easy .5 second there.

[Nate047]

Okay awesome, that link is helpful and he talks about the exact point I was asking about. If you’re not in ABS, you’re leaving something on the table. That makes sense, no arguing that. I suppose I’m just grasping at reasons to not do this job because it seems like a fairly big pain in the ass and/or expense to shop out.

[terra]

For situations where I wanted to have a race unit and the "flash" costs thousands of dollars and result in the loss of DSC regardless... I'd be tempted to pony up a little more and get the real deal continental RSX or Bosch M4/M5 modules and have a much greater degree of control.

For street situations, basically MK60 is our best available "upgrade". With Z4 variant of the MK60e5 perhaps offering a little more. In that particular case I don't think there would be an issue with brake bias and whatnot, given the Z4M and ZCP/CSL have literally the same brakes

[George Hill]

Re: threshold braking... I don't know if I can get behind everything in the video, but doesn't seem unreasonable either.

https://youtu.be/G-GEUkiMuLk

I've got an E36 client and we are looking into swapping to a MK60 or MK60E1 variant. I talked to Doug Wardell of RHT (https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/) and he said the following:
"The E units are really only good in race firmware versions; the MK60Ex units people are putting in using street car maps are not ideal due mostly to the brake bias in the cars they are from and how much it differs from earlier E30, 36, and 46 platforms..... The race firmware takes software developed by Contintenal Motorsport for racing applications and places it on the ABS unit. There's a map that is then built using chassis parameters specific to the car. Same process as how Bosch Motorsport units work only the MK60 based systems are a bench flash."

And Competition MK60 vs E1
"If we were to source an 813.3 MK60 and flash it with the race programming, how would you compare it to the E1 in race flash? Is the E1 still a better option? They are very similar; I'm not sure you'd be able to detect a difference in performance. The 813 Race units run at 1mbps CANBUS speed which can be an advantage if you only have 1 canbus network and the rest of your devices are 1mbps however that doesn't sound like the case here. The map prices are the same, the only difference is you're saving the cost of the ABS unit.

[mrgizmo04]

Let's see if this Tapatalk thing is fixed.

Most drivers, unless very experienced and skilled, don't/won't apply enough brake pressure, therefore getting into ABS will provide better stopping. Sensing slip in a single tire and adjusting while the other 3 are slowing you down is not something you can outdo. One thing to get used to is the pulsating feeling against your foot, but that is only good on initial application as on entry and turn in, trail braking requires less pressure.

Normally you'd hit ABS when your track tires are not warmed up, assuming you run grabby pads. If you run grabby pads and street tires, you'll be in ABS most/all of the time, tires will shoot up in pressure from all the work and temp you put into them. If you can't hit ABS standing on the pedal, your tires are grippy and pads not so much, better be cooling those pads .

ABS pulsating will wear pads/rotors more, similar for stability control, as it's hammering full force.

I've had ice mode with MK60. I also know other drivers with MK60 who have experienced ice mode. Some data points are on slicks with aero, some on street tires at autox, some on 200tw on track with no aero. Qualitative commonality (which is very unscientific) is stiff suspension and running into dips on the road, then coming out of the dip the slight unloading seems to throw it for a loop...sometimes.

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[eacmen]

Right on, good impressions. My reaction to all this is that I try my best to stay out of ABS if at all possible on track, including when I'm trail braking. Maybe I'm not getting every last 1/10th of a second though. I'll differ to the experienced racers on that, and in fact I'd like to hear what exactly is better about being in ABS vs being at the threshold just before it kicks in.

My data seems to suggest that if I stay IN abs and commit to it I stop faster than if I stay out of ABS. But most of the time if I hit ABS my instinct is to back out of the pedal.

There were a few times I intentionally went into ABS and made myself commit to it and it was better. Can’t comment on how it effects rotor and pad life.


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[Nate047]

Right on, good impressions. My reaction to all this is that I try my best to stay out of ABS if at all possible on track, including when I'm trail braking. Maybe I'm not getting every last 1/10th of a second though. I'll differ to the experienced racers on that, and in fact I'd like to hear what exactly is better about being in ABS vs being at the threshold just before it kicks in.

[terra]

When M track mode is enabled, the slip threshold increases, but not as much as I thought. It seems like it works mostly on wheel speed delta between the front and rear axle. It won't let you get the car super sideways at lower speed, but it will allow slip in corners at higher speeds. I've found that the biggest difference isn't so much in the amount of oversteer it allows, but instead in the amount of understeer. With the MK20, pretty much any steering input with the front end loaded up resulted in the system activating. The MK60 with everything on is much less aggressive at this, but still intervenes a bit (especially at the track). M track mode makes it so that you reaally have to be pushing the front end a lot before it starts intervening.

I do wonder if the real CSL/ZCP module's M-track is any different in this regard. I should have done some scientific testing when I made the switch myself.

For that matter, I wonder about the ABS difference too with the real CSL/ZCP module. I have always read claims that it's different, but I just don't have enough seat time at the limits to say if there's a real difference.

With the ABS difference being that pronounced between the MK20 and MK60, that makes me even more curious about the MK60e5, MK100, and the actual race modules. Especially since one of the innovations with the MK60e5 is supposed to be "analog" control of the abs solenoids, which coupled with the independent pressure sensors makes me think the ABS behavior during turns could be even better

[heinzboehmer]

I'm glad that you can notice a difference and it aligns with my opinion. I can't speak about traction control, I always turn it off before I deleted it.

Oh yeah I ended up turning everything off after some laps, it definitely gets in your way if you're pushing even a little hard on track. It was interesting to mess around with though.

I would suggest rethinking this. You can brake and turn...you SHOULD brake and turn if you want to run a fast lap. The MK60 has done very well for me. I have gained up to 1 second in some turns where I'm in the brakes aggressively and turning at speeds over 80mph. It opens a world of possibilities on some tracks. In fact I think this is the one reason to keep ABS vs going to manual brakes.

Thanks for the tip! I still have a long way to go in terms of driving skill, so I'll have to experiment with this a bit more. The most I do now is start my turns with the brakes still depressed, but it sounds like I might be able to gain some time if I further overlap the two. Have something to work on for my next track day!

But perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more when I said that. Didn't mean it to sound like that's something you NEVER want to do in a car, but you should probably not do it the way I was doing it. When I tried this I was basically trying to be as stupid as possible. i.e. Sharp and not smooth turn of the wheel and hard slam on the brakes. Was just trying to upset the car as much as possible to see how the system responded. To my surprise it did pretty well.

[bigjae46]

ABS:

This is where I felt the biggest difference (and it was especially huge on track). I do have to give a disclaimer and say that I wasn't the best of scientists, though. I changed three variables at once (MK60, tires, track), so it wasn't truly a fair comparison. Regardless, I felt the difference was big enough that it was worth writing about.

I'm glad that you can notice a difference and it aligns with my opinion. I can't speak about traction control, I always turn it off before I deleted it.

The system even handles ABS braking with the steering wheel turned surprisingly well. Not that you ever really want to be doing that, but I was messing around with it on track and the car just slowed down as it turned, instead of squirming around all over the place.

I would suggest rethinking this. You can brake and turn...you SHOULD brake and turn if you want to run a fast lap. The MK60 has done very well for me. I have gained up to 1 second in some turns where I'm in the brakes aggressively and turning at speeds over 80mph. It opens a world of possibilities on some tracks. In fact I think this is the one reason to keep ABS vs going to manual brakes.