Suggestions for Dual-Purposed Coilovers for Tracking and Spirited Driving

[fattycharged]

Are you trying to sell your kit once the dampers arrive?

That's the idea, or I'll run them, but I'm always looking to try something else on a vehicle I've owned over a decade.


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[Nowhereman89]

All about perspective indeed.

IMO, the key to understanding BC is to understand what real suspension development takes. If you poke around on the websites of Bilstein, KW, Öhlins, Koni, etc., you'll get a glimpse of how complicated it is. Shaker rigs, sophisticated CAD tools, extensive road and track testing, high-tier motorsports, TÜV approvals, the list goes on.

There's a whole tier of coilovers that are based on little to none of that. It's basically just ballparking dimensions/spring rates/damping, running prototypes to make sure nothing’s hideously wrong, and shipping the kit. They might sponsor a small-time race/drift team here and there, and they'll do show cars all day, but you won't find them anywhere near F1, WEC, WRC, NASCAR, etc.

BC is basically the king of that lower tier. Their advantage over other low-tier brands is that they manufacture a lot of those other brands’ kits, so they have a ton of scale and lots of ideas to draw from (steal?). But fundamentally, they're just a better version of the same thing.

What difference does that make in practice? Most of the time, it's hard to tell unless you know what to feel for and are paying attention; BCs aren't so horrific that most people can tell right away in normal-ish driving. So, most people don't notice the deficiencies of a BC kit vs. something legit – or, if they do, they chalk it up to "coilovers are stiff" or the road being bad, or they just add “for the price” onto everything they say.

However, if you get real seat time with cars on legit-brand coilovers, and if you pay attention, you’ll notice a significantly better mix of body control and compliance than you’d get with BC; usually better body control for the same level of compliance, sometimes advantages in both areas. No amount of knob twiddling on the BCs will fix that. “30 clicks of adjustable damping” really means “at least 29 incorrect damper settings.” All you can do is find the least-bad one.

You might also notice that, as long as a legit kit has been set up within the designer’s guidelines, the car is very well behaved. You’d be hard pressed to unsettle it or make it respond unpredictably. This means the designer went to great lengths to find all possible edge cases and make the coilovers work at least reasonably in all of them.

No such luck with BC and the other low-effort brands. When you read reviews of their stuff – not always informative because, again, most people don't know what to feel for – you’ll occasionally see people admit their car had some weird handling tendency or ride quality quirk that only shows up in certain situations (e.g. you have to be careful hitting bumps at high speed – actual feedback from a BC BR user here). Everything’s fine… until it isn’t. The lack of thorough development means those kinks don't get ironed out, and you might not know what they are until it’s too late. And, again, this isn’t something that can be tuned out. All the adjustability in the world doesn’t help when all the settings suck because the basic design is mediocre. It just has to be lived with. All of this is less of a problem for BC than for other low-effort brands, but “less of a problem” is nowhere near as good as “not a problem” – which is what you get with the big brands.

Longevity is usually better for the big brands, too. Sometimes vastly better. Again, not something most people would likely notice on a test drive, but quite important and hard to do well.

This is why BC can sell you a “fully adjustable” coilover kit for close to the same price as a minimally adjustable Bilstein PSS kit. It’s not hard to offer a ton of features on paper. What’s hard is to make a product that works well, offers reasonable tradeoffs, lasts a long time, and doesn’t tend to make the car do anything stupid.

It’s also how BC can seem good in Honda world and crappy here. Both perspectives are reasonable. This is a niche community, with a critical mass of people who have both the discernment and the means to pursue fully engineered products. Such people certainly exist in Honda land, but they’re massively outnumbered and tend to move on to other platforms anyway, as you did – with obvious implications for the kinds of products that companies are willing to make. So, yes, BCs can be hard to take seriously when you know what to look for and have a chassis that's great to begin with – but they’re still better than most of the products available in many markets.

FWIW.

Well I'm sold - on skipping the BCs anyway!

[IamFODI]

All about perspective, right? Before my e46 I had a 2012 civic SI that I considered keeping and modding (ended up selling). In the civic world, most people are on i want to say godspeed coilovers, fortune auto, or tein, and talk about upgrading to BC BR coilovers.. Maybe ohlins and KW don't make them for 9th gen hondas. And then coming into this platform and finding out BC BR is going to be considered pretty lower tier (at least on internet forums). Not trashing the BC BR coilovers I test drove an e46 that had them installed and liked the feel quite a bit, I just don't want to get them and install them only to want to upgrade again soon.

All about perspective indeed.

IMO, the key to understanding BC is to understand what real suspension development takes. If you poke around on the websites of Bilstein, KW, Öhlins, Koni, etc., you'll get a glimpse of how complicated it is. Shaker rigs, sophisticated CAD tools, extensive road and track testing, high-tier motorsports, TÜV approvals, OE fitments, the list goes on.

There's a whole tier of coilovers that are based on little to none of that. It's basically just ballparking dimensions/spring rates/damping, running prototypes to make sure nothing’s hideously wrong, and shipping the kit. They might sponsor a small-time race/drift team here and there, and they'll do show cars all day, but you won't find them anywhere near F1, WEC, WRC, NASCAR, car companies, etc.

BC is basically the king of that lower tier. Their advantage over other low-tier brands is that they manufacture a lot of those other brands’ kits, so they have a ton of scale and lots of ideas to draw from (steal?). But fundamentally, they're just a better version of the same thing.

What difference does that make in practice? Most of the time, it's hard to tell unless you know what to feel for and are paying attention; BCs aren't so horrific that most people can tell right away in normal-ish driving. So, most people don't notice the deficiencies of a BC kit vs. something legit – or, if they do, they chalk it up to "coilovers are stiff" or the road being bad, or they just add “for the price” onto everything they say.

However, if you get real seat time with cars on legit-brand coilovers, and if you pay attention, you’ll notice a significantly better mix of body control and compliance than you’d get with BC; usually better body control for the same level of compliance, sometimes advantages in both areas. No amount of knob twiddling on the BCs will fix that. “30 clicks of adjustable damping” really means “at least 29 incorrect damper settings.” All you can do is find the least-bad one.

You might also notice that, as long as a legit kit has been set up within the designer’s guidelines, the car is very well behaved. You’d be hard pressed to unsettle it or make it respond unpredictably. This means the designer tried to find as many edge cases as possible and make the coilovers work at least reasonably in all of them. That takes a lot of work and resources.

No such luck with BC and the other low-effort brands. When you read reviews of their stuff – not always informative because, again, most people don't know what to feel for – you’ll occasionally see people admit their car had some weird handling tendency or ride quality quirk that only shows up in certain situations (e.g. you have to be careful hitting bumps at high speed – actual feedback from a BC BR user here). Everything’s fine… until it isn’t. The lack of thorough development means those kinks don't get ironed out, and you might not know what they are until it’s too late. And, again, this isn’t something that can be tuned out. All the adjustability in the world doesn’t help when all the settings suck because the basic design is mediocre. It just has to be lived with. All of this is less of a problem for BC than for other low-effort brands, but “less of a problem” is nowhere near as good as “not a problem” – which is what you get with the big brands.

Longevity is usually better for the big brands, too. Sometimes vastly better. Again, not something most people would likely notice on a test drive, but quite important and hard to do well.

This is why BC can sell you a “fully adjustable” coilover kit for close to the same price as a minimally adjustable Bilstein PSS kit. It’s not hard to offer a ton of features on paper. What’s hard is to make a product that works well, offers reasonable tradeoffs, lasts a long time, and doesn’t tend to make the car do anything stupid.

It’s also how BC can seem good in Honda world and crappy here. Both perspectives are reasonable. This is a niche community, with a critical mass of people who have both the discernment and the means to pursue fully engineered products. Such people certainly exist in Honda land, but they’re massively outnumbered and tend to move on to other platforms anyway, as you did – with obvious implications for the kinds of products that companies are willing to make. So, yes, BCs can be hard to take seriously when you know what to look for and have a chassis that's great to begin with – but they’re still better than most of the products available in many markets.

FWIW.

[Tbonem3]

MCS make no noise. Noise is coming from your mounts or springs or something else. On full soft, with reasonable spring rates like people are doing now (3xx/6xx), the MCS1wnr are pure bliss.

[cobra]

FWIW. I am on MCS 1WNR. And probably going to switch out for Ohlins R&T. Nothing but good experiences with Ohlins from ride quality and manufacturing quality standpoint when I've used them in the past on other platforms (S2000). I've had them for 40K miles street & track & 5 years on my S2000 without rebuild and they are still doing great. They do give up some performance on track compared to MCS 2W setup or a TTX setup.

MCS makes a great streetable track damper. But they are noisy and compression damping is valved too stiff for street use on crap CA roads, even with "soft" spring rates. This car being 90% street use, Ohlins makes a great trackable street damper. Looking forward to making the change.

Can't you just fix the valving? The basic shock architecture of the 1WNR isn't bad.

[dreamdrivedrift]

FWIW. I am on MCS 1WNR. And probably going to switch out for Ohlins R&T. Nothing but good experiences with Ohlins from ride quality and manufacturing quality standpoint when I've used them in the past on other platforms (S2000). I've had them for 40K miles street & track & 5 years on my S2000 without rebuild and they are still doing great. They do give up some performance on track compared to MCS 2W setup or a TTX setup.

MCS makes a great streetable track damper. But they are noisy and compression damping is valved too stiff for street use on crap CA roads, even with "soft" spring rates. This car being 90% street use, Ohlins makes a great trackable street damper. Looking forward to making the change.

[Nowhereman89]

I've got a brand new set of KW V3 dampers on their way from Germany currently if you're interested, springs are used, but decided to do this instead of wait on a rebuild.

Are you trying to sell your kit once the dampers arrive?

[fattycharged]

Nice! Definitely thinking of going with this kit. KWV3 & Camber plates would cost the same anyway. What was the timeframe like between ordering and shipping?

I've got a brand new set of KW V3 dampers on their way from Germany currently if you're interested, springs are used, but decided to do this instead of wait on a rebuild.

[Nowhereman89]

Is it just me or does that look like an insanely bumpy track? I'm not surprised he found his dampers' thermal limits there!

cobra is right about TTX not being a "twin-tube" in the same sense as the other dampers here, so I stand corrected and have to withdraw that comparison. Maybe TC Kline is a better comparison? They use twin-tube Konis, right? Either way, I think the rest of what I said pretty much holds. KW tests their stuff on the Nordschleife, so it's a safe bet that they don't wilt easily, even if the dude in the video found their limits.

Correct about TTX being head-and-shoulders above KW V3 and Öhlins R&T. Not really a fair comparison.

Funny aside: Barry at 3DM told me a story about a customer who went from DFV dampers (what's in the R&T kit) to TTX. At his first event, the customer thought his ABS was busted because it wasn't kicking in like it used to. Turns out he just had that much more traction. Apparently that's how much better TTX is at controlling small displacements. When you think of how much better the KW V3/Öhlins DFV tier of dampers is vs. what most people think is "good enough" (e.g. BC Racing), it's kind of mind-blowing that that's nowhere near as good as it gets.

Too funny! All about perspective, right? Before my e46 I had a 2012 civic SI that I considered keeping and modding (ended up selling). In the civic world, most people are on i want to say godspeed coilovers, fortune auto, or tein, and talk about upgrading to BC BR coilovers.. Maybe ohlins and KW don't make them for 9th gen hondas. And then coming into this platform and finding out BC BR is going to be considered pretty lower tier (at least on internet forums). Not trashing the BC BR coilovers I test drove an e46 that had them installed and liked the feel quite a bit, I just don't want to get them and install them only to want to upgrade again soon.

That's exactly why I love these suspension threads and nerding out on this stuff

It's one upgrade that can completely change the feel and performance of your car even though they all just look like metal tubes from the outside.

I love learning about it and trying to share knowledge because it's a very daunting/mysterious subject for most people.

Yeah this is really some esoteric shit. I'm not an idiot in most areas but when I try to learn about suspension I can't keep up - usually I'm reading or watching in the background and think I need to really focus on it at some point.

[cobra]

Is it just me or does that look like an insanely bumpy track? I'm not surprised he found his dampers' thermal limits there!

cobra is right about TTX not being a "twin-tube" in the same sense as the other dampers here, so I stand corrected and have to withdraw that comparison. Maybe TC Kline is a better comparison? They use twin-tube Konis, right? Either way, I think the rest of what I said pretty much holds. KW tests their stuff on the Nordschleife, so it's a safe bet that they don't wilt easily, even if the dude in the video found their limits.

Correct about TTX being head-and-shoulders above KW V3 and Öhlins R&T. Not really a fair comparison.

Funny aside: Barry at 3DM told me a story about a customer who went from DFV dampers (what's in the R&T kit) to TTX. At his first event, the customer thought his ABS was busted because it wasn't kicking in like it used to. Turns out he just had that much more traction. Apparently that's how much better TTX is at controlling small displacements. When you think of how much better the KW V3/Öhlins DFV tier of dampers is vs. what most people think is "good enough" (e.g. BC Racing), it's kind of mind-blowing that that's nowhere near as good as it gets.

That's exactly why I love these suspension threads and nerding out on this stuff

It's one upgrade that can completely change the feel and performance of your car even though they all just look like metal tubes from the outside.

I love learning about it and trying to share knowledge because it's a very daunting/mysterious subject for most people.

[IamFODI]

Totally, love the info and explanation here - as well as from everyone else in this thread. I think what was coming to mind was the below video I found while searching for KWv3 vs. Ohlins RT comparisons, and the associated comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjgxTyL6QKU&t=45s

He mentions the KWv3 heatsoaks first.

Of course, he's comparing the Kw vs. the TTX you mentioned above which come to find out is also twin tube! Seems like he was faster with the KWv3 initially, but then returned his swaybars to OEM, and the ohlins TTX were faster. Of course, a much more expensive product than the KWv3, which clearly is meant to compete with Ohlins RT rather than TTX.

Is it just me or does that look like an insanely bumpy track? I'm not surprised he found his dampers' thermal limits there!

cobra is right about TTX not being a "twin-tube" in the same sense as the other dampers here, so I stand corrected and have to withdraw that comparison. Maybe TC Kline is a better comparison? They use twin-tube Konis, right? Either way, I think the rest of what I said pretty much holds. KW tests their stuff on the Nordschleife, so it's a safe bet that they don't wilt easily, even if the dude in the video found their limits.

Correct about TTX being head-and-shoulders above KW V3 and Öhlins R&T. Not really a fair comparison.

Funny aside: Barry at 3DM told me a story about a customer who went from DFV dampers (what's in the R&T kit) to TTX. At his first event, the customer thought his ABS was busted because it wasn't kicking in like it used to. Turns out he just had that much more traction. Apparently that's how much better TTX is at controlling small displacements. When you think of how much better the KW V3/Öhlins DFV tier of dampers is vs. what most people think is "good enough" (e.g. BC Racing), it's kind of mind-blowing that that's nowhere near as good as it gets.

[IamFODI]

A monotube reservoir shock has the same or better travel than a twin tube. PSS10, Ohlins R&T, etc all have in-line floating pistons and therefore have limited travel. MCS/JRZ remotes or TTX do not have this limitation.

Ohlins TTX have 2 tubes, but are not "twin tube" in the same as all the other shocks mentioned. They have a solid piston and pump all oil through the compression/rebound valves. There are pros and cons to this layout but for race/track use it's hard to beat for performance and tunability. They also cost almost $9k for a kit for the E46

Thanks for the corrections and elaborations. 👍

Didn't think remote reservoirs were particularly relevant here, but good points regardless.

[cobra]

zzyzx85's comments on heat are accurate AFAIK. I'm a bit surprised to hear about KWs overheating; yes, technically it's a higher risk for them vs. for an equivalently engineered monotube damper, but I'd be shocked (pun intended) to see it happen in practice except on a pretty extreme application.

AFAIK twin-tube vs. monotube is like strut vs. double A-arm. No one's gonna go with the "lesser" option given the choice and an unlimited budget, but there are cases in which it works well enough that no one cares that it's technically "worse". Virtually all Porsche 911s and all M3s use struts. Öhlins's TTX series, no one's idea of bad dampers, are twin-tube. And there are plenty of poor-handling A-arm suspensions and crap monotube dampers. So, yeah, although monotube is arguably superior all things considered, I wouldn't worry about it. What counts is how the finished product performs.

If you're curious, this is a decent summary, though it's heavily biased against twin-tube: https://www.penskeshocks.com/blog/mo...or-performance

The main advantage of a twin-tube design is more travel for a given damper body length. Doesn't look like much vs. all the advantages of a monotube, but it can add a lot of freedom in setting up the suspension. I can attest to this, as can Obioban I believe; the travel limitations of Öhlins dampers are probably the one truly annoying thing about them.

So, yeah – don't let the monotube/twin-tube thing scare you away from KW. Make your decision based on how you think the overall package is going to perform. I happen to think the monotube option is the better choice here, but that's not because it's monotube per se, if that makes sense.

A monotube reservoir shock has the same or better travel than a twin tube. PSS10, Ohlins R&T, etc all have in-line floating pistons and therefore have limited travel. MCS/JRZ remotes or TTX do not have this limitation.

Ohlins TTX have 2 tubes, but are not "twin tube" in the same as all the other shocks mentioned. They have a solid piston and pump all oil through the compression/rebound valves. There are pros and cons to this layout but for race/track use it's hard to beat for performance and tunability. They also cost almost $9k for a kit for the E46

[Nowhereman89]

zzyzx85's comments on heat are accurate AFAIK. I'm a bit surprised to hear about KWs overheating; yes, technically it's a higher risk for them vs. for an equivalently engineered monotube damper, but I'd be shocked (pun intended) to see it happen in practice except on a pretty extreme application.

AFAIK twin-tube vs. monotube is like strut vs. double A-arm. No one's gonna go with the "lesser" option given the choice and an unlimited budget, but there are cases in which it works well enough that no one cares that it's technically "worse". Virtually all Porsche 911s and all M3s use struts. Öhlins's TTX series, no one's idea of bad dampers, are twin-tube. And there are plenty of poor-handling A-arm suspensions and crap monotube dampers. So, yeah, although monotube is arguably superior all things considered, I wouldn't worry about it. What counts is how the finished product performs.

If you're curious, this is a decent summary, though it's heavily biased against twin-tube: https://www.penskeshocks.com/blog/mo...or-performance

The main advantage of a twin-tube design is more travel for a given damper body length. Doesn't look like much vs. all the advantages of a monotube, but it can add a lot of freedom in setting up the suspension. I can attest to this, as can Obioban I believe; the travel limitations of Öhlins dampers are probably the one truly annoying thing about them.

So, yeah – don't let the monotube/twin-tube thing scare you away from KW. Make your decision based on how you think the overall package is going to perform. I happen to think the monotube option is the better choice here, but that's not because it's monotube per se, if that makes sense.

Totally, love the info and explanation here - as well as from everyone else in this thread. I think what was coming to mind was the below video I found while searching for KWv3 vs. Ohlins RT comparisons, and the associated comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjgxTyL6QKU&t=45s

He mentions the KWv3 heatsoaks first.

Of course, he's comparing the Kw vs. the TTX you mentioned above which come to find out is also twin tube! Seems like he was faster with the KWv3 initially, but then returned his swaybars to OEM, and the ohlins TTX were faster. Of course, a much more expensive product than the KWv3, which clearly is meant to compete with Ohlins RT rather than TTX.

[IamFODI]

Also, I know Ohlins is "monotube" and KW is "twin tube". I don't know exactly what monotube is that makes it more legit than twin tube, but it seems like it is.

I've seen a couple of comments out there about KWs overheating potentially. Would that happen to me as a newbie on track, almost definitely not. But still the idea is to get a set that I'll grow into and hopefully not want to upgrade for a long time.

zzyzx85's comments on heat are accurate AFAIK. I'm a bit surprised to hear about KWs overheating; yes, technically it's a higher risk for them vs. for an equivalently engineered monotube damper, but I'd be shocked (pun intended) to see it happen in practice except on a pretty extreme application.

AFAIK twin-tube vs. monotube is like strut vs. double A-arm. No one's gonna go with the "lesser" option given the choice and an unlimited budget, but there are cases in which it works well enough that no one cares that it's technically "worse". Virtually all Porsche 911s and all M3s use struts. Öhlins's TTX series, no one's idea of bad dampers, are twin-tube. And there are plenty of poor-handling A-arm suspensions and crap monotube dampers. So, yeah, although monotube is arguably superior all things considered, I wouldn't worry about it. What counts is how the finished product performs.

If you're curious, this is a decent summary, though it's heavily biased against twin-tube: https://www.penskeshocks.com/blog/mo...or-performance

The main advantage of a twin-tube design is more travel for a given damper body length. Doesn't look like much vs. all the advantages of a monotube, but it can add a lot of freedom in setting up the suspension. I can attest to this, as can Obioban I believe; the travel limitations of Öhlins dampers are probably the one truly annoying thing about them.

So, yeah – don't let the monotube/twin-tube thing scare you away from KW. Make your decision based on how you think the overall package is going to perform. I happen to think the monotube option is the better choice here, but that's not because it's monotube per se, if that makes sense.