Porsche Brembo 996 BBK Conversion-- let's figure out how to fix the dust boots/seals

[mrgizmo04]

How do the yellow and blue compounds compare in the real world?

Good to know FCP are carrying these now. Related: They also carry red/blue/yellow and Hawk DTC-60 for the D1001 shape of the Megane RS and DB9 calipers.

I went with DTC-60 because it was all that was available at the time, but I am curious about the EBC offerings.

I stayed away from EBC after reading other platform reviews on yellow, they barely handle heat and crumble, very "light" track duty pad. Blues are supposed to be for more serious track work, but I have not tried them either.

I might try Pagid yellow29 pads at some point as keep hearing positive vibes on those.

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[Nate047]

For the rears you would be looking at non S Boxster fronts. They offer quite a few, Hawk dtc60, Ferodo ds2500 (you might be able to get away on rears, depending on skill level), Pagid RSL29, Pagid 14/44 (backorder), and looks like they just started with EBC - yellow/blue are the "track oriented", red are street and are super low dust/no noise but high initial bite (those who like Textars might give them a shot, but I melted them on BBK on s2k in canyons, I never ran Textars, so can't compare exactly, but red street performance was stellar though, ymmv depending on car use case).

https://www.fcpeuro.com/Porsche-parts/Boxster/Disc-Brake-Pad/?position=Front&year=2004&m=20&e=40&t=6&b=10&d=&v=

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How do the yellow and blue compounds compare in the real world?

Good to know FCP are carrying these now. Related: They also carry red/blue/yellow and Hawk DTC-60 for the D1001 shape of the Megane RS and DB9 calipers.

I went with DTC-60 because it was all that was available at the time, but I am curious about the EBC offerings.

[mrgizmo04]

Another random thought I had as partial(full?) solution to baked dust boots and to not have them pop out when pads get low...is to run new pads every track day (or at least replace at 50%?). You need something to absorb the heat, as the pad wears, it can take less energy and conducts more of it to pistons (Ti shims can only do so much as a barrier, at some point they get oversaturated too). As pad wears, pistons protrude more out of the bores, and as the pistons heat up, they conduct the heat to the hot air around them/dust boot. And the dust boot on a protruded piston is a bit stretched/stressed so melts/cracks as it absorbs all that energy. Air is a poor conductor and is an insulator. So if the pistons were more retracted into the bores (what happens when pad is newer), heat exchange would happen between piston and bore/caliper as well as fluid in caliper, so dust boot would not absorb as much energy to melt. That's what engineering hunch is telling me.

Ian's first pic shows pads rather low and pistons protruding, was similar case when mine developed crack from heat.

This is obviously not wallet friendly or FCP warranty policy friendly, but I Iike to share my random wannabe engineer thoughts. 🤣

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[SpaceJockey]

Thanks man!

[mrgizmo04]

Which track pads are you running? It looks like they only offer DS2500 for the rears.

For the rears you would be looking at non S Boxster fronts. They offer quite a few, Hawk dtc60, Ferodo ds2500 (you might be able to get away on rears, depending on skill level), Pagid RSL29, Pagid 14/44 (backorder), and looks like they just started with EBC - yellow/blue are the "track oriented", red are street and are super low dust/no noise but high initial bite (those who like Textars might give them a shot, but I melted them on BBK on s2k in canyons, I never ran Textars, so can't compare exactly, but red street performance was stellar though, ymmv depending on car use case).

https://www.fcpeuro.com/Porsche-parts/Boxster/Disc-Brake-Pad/?position=Front&year=2004&m=20&e=40&t=6&b=10&d=&v=

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[SpaceJockey]

FCP sells 996 track pads and CSL/ZCP rotors. That eliminates... 1/4-1/3 the cost of tracking

In every other way, the Brembo kit is hugely better. Lighter, pads last longer, rotors last longer, better pedal feel, no dust boot issues.

... I'm not entirely sure I made the correct choice.

Which track pads are you running? It looks like they only offer DS2500 for the rears.

[mrgizmo04]

Dumb question here: If you are on OE (Textar) pads, would you actually need more pedal travel to get the same braking power? Asking because I am assuming a decrease in piston area means more pedal travel needed and therefore more modulation. Thanks!

You have the ratio backwards. For same master cylinder, smaller caliper pistons will result in less pedal travel, but would require more leg force. Don't skip leg day! If you want to skip leg day, you can get a higher mu pad. At the wheel, for same master cylinder and leg force what provides more braking torque are any of the 3 - larger diameter rotor, larger diameter pistons, higher friction pad.

For illustration, similar to getting a cyringe (master cylinder) to fill up a bath tub (large piston, it will take all the fluid in the syringe + then some), vs if we decrease the area of the piston and now need to fill up a thimble from same syringe (in this case the plunger will barely move). You are moving fluid from one reservoir to another, if destination is smaller than origin, you need fewer pump/less travel. This is reverse of a hydrolic jack where you need to raise a car by pumping the small piston 10 times.

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[Epsilon]

What does improvement in brake pedal feel mean to you? You want less pedal travel (that's what most associate), more initial bite, faster abs engagement, better at limit modulation? Everyone is after a personalized definition of that and it's subjective per your car use case.

Because of decrease in piston area vs stock, pedal travel decreases for same amount of force on the pad. I can tell you running super grabby pads like dtc70 the pedal feel to me is horrible at limit, modulation becomes non existent and pads work like an on/off switch. Brake release being most important and toughest thing to master to properly position the car at the limit, that feel sucks.

I know most audience for these is not track oriented, but painting the fuller picture. There are definitely compromises you need to learn to live with, with this kit.

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Dumb question here: If you are on OE (Textar) pads, would you actually need more pedal travel to get the same braking power? Asking because I am assuming a decrease in piston area means more pedal travel needed and therefore more modulation. Thanks!

[nyc951]

What does improvement in brake pedal feel mean to you? You want less pedal travel (that's what most associate), more initial bite, faster abs engagement, better at limit modulation? Everyone is after a personalized definition of that and it's subjective per your car use case.

Because of decrease in piston area vs stock, pedal travel decreases for same amount of force on the pad. I can tell you running super grabby pads like dtc70 the pedal feel to me is horrible at limit, modulation becomes non existent and pads work like an on/off switch. Brake release being most important and toughest thing to master to properly position the car at the limit, that feel sucks.

I know most audience for these is not track oriented, but painting the fuller picture. There are definitely compromises you need to learn to live with, with this kit.

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Appreciate the thoughtful response. Good pedal feel to me would be firm and easily modulated braking. I don’t plan on tracking this car (much), but I’ll keep your feedback in mind.

[mrgizmo04]

Does anyone know if there is any noticeable improvement in brake pedal feel for a Competition car with the 996 brake caliper mod?

What does improvement in brake pedal feel mean to you? You want less pedal travel (that's what most associate), more initial bite, faster abs engagement, better at limit modulation? Everyone is after a personalized definition of that and it's subjective per your car use case.

Because of decrease in piston area vs stock, pedal travel decreases for same amount of force on the pad. I can tell you running super grabby pads like dtc70 the pedal feel to me is horrible at limit, modulation becomes non existent and pads work like an on/off switch. Brake release being most important and toughest thing to master to properly position the car at the limit, that feel sucks.

I know most audience for these is not track oriented, but painting the fuller picture. There are definitely compromises you need to learn to live with, with this kit.

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[Obioban]

Does anyone know if there is any noticeable improvement in brake pedal feel for a Competition car with the 996 brake caliper mod?

The 996 calipers feel better than stock for sure. Just not as nice as the Brembos.

[nyc951]

FCP sells 996 track pads and CSL/ZCP rotors. That eliminates... 1/4-1/3 the cost of tracking

In every other way, the Brembo kit is hugely better. Lighter, pads last longer, rotors last longer, better pedal feel, no dust boot issues.

... I'm not entirely sure I made the correct choice.

Does anyone know if there is any noticeable improvement in brake pedal feel for a Competition car with the 996 brake caliper mod?

[Cronenberged]

No new information here, but Brembo got back to me-- so thought I'd post further confirmation of what we've already established:



So, no dust boot upgrade options from Brembo.

When you re-upgrade to the GT calipers I would be happy to buy your 996's 😁

[r4dr]

I see ECS sells Girodisc rotors, and they qualify for their newly announced lifetime warranty program:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-girodisc...ir-a2-152~grd/

Seems like this may be the actual solution! Real rotors that can get rid of heat, with a lifetime warranty!

... now hurry up and get those ZCP sized rotors on the market, please

LOL, I'm curious how long that lasts. I know the supplier they would buy through, and if ECS wants to eat those replacement costs... I wish them luck.

The ZCP-sized fronts are on the market, the rears are all the same, aren't they? I doubt the rears would be a regular production item, just made in batches of 5 pairs at a time... but the replacement rings would be stocked.

[Obioban]

No new information here, but Brembo got back to me-- so thought I'd post further confirmation of what we've already established:

Based on your feedback as well as your experience with a GT upgrade system, it sounds like your driving level has graduated from the OEM Porsche calipers.

As far as dust boots, there is a good chance your OE calipers already have the same dust boots that are found on our GT calipers. The difference would be the internal pressure seal, but the GT seals would not be compatible with the OE calipers. If you're burning through dust boots its likely that you're exceeding the thermal capacity of the caliper itself. Dust boots & seals aside, the design of the GT caliper is going to have a higher thermal capacity and better heat resistance overall. Since GT is designed as an upgrade to the OE system, we take into consideration how hard the car can and will be driven, along with any potential increases over factory horsepower, aero, tires, etc.

We have had customers burn through boots on GT calipers, while this is primarily due to age, when we know it's a newer system we usually find out the driver is simply out performing the GT calipers, and then we get them into GT-S, or race systems if the car is no longer being street driven. You can checkout all the options we have for an E46 M3 here; http://www.racetechnologies.com/prod...0?vehicle=7760

Something else to consider is fluid, but if you're running the same fluid as you do with the GT setup, we can likely rule this out.

So, no dust boot upgrade options from Brembo.