Went for a drive, lost power and now car exhaust sounds like it has cams

[sapote]

I would think it depends if the solenoid valves close. If so, the oil can't drain back and the timing is locked right?

Yes if the solenoids are all closed. But the DME doesn't know the vanos oil pressure is gone, and during driving DME actively controlling the cams and so some or all solenoids must had been opened then the oil escaped and pistons moved to retarded positions.

[DJAM3]

I would think it depends if the solenoid valves close. If so, the oil can't drain back and the timing is locked right?

[Slideways]

There’s a helical splined shaft between piston and cam to convert piston linear motion to cam rotation. So with no oil P, cam rotation converts back to piston linear motion to retard them.

Are you sure? I would think that the cam timing becomes fixed and the engine should operate well enough at the specific RPM range where the fault occurred. Doesn't it take 100 bar of oil pressure to move the VANOS pistons in or out? Not sure how only cam rotation can fully retard the VANOS pistons.

[jpy1980]

Also, be aware with any shop, they may have other jobs in front of yours and unless the communication on BOTH sides is there frustrating wait times can occur for the customer.

For example we recently had a customer drop off an Audi for a 100k timing chain service.

We told the customer we had many other cars in front of his but to feel free to drop it off even though it likely will not be up on the lift and work started for at least a week, if not two weeks.

The customer dropped the car off immediately as they didn't feel comfortable driving it until the timing work was complete and sure enough it sat for almost 2 weeks before work commenced.

The job was a rather large one, engine out, multiple timing chains, tensioners etc.

But long story short, we had the job done in 2 business days however the customer was angry as in his perspective we took over 2 weeks to complete this job.

Bad communication on our part unfortunately, we should have been crystal clear about when the car was dropped off vs. work being started.
But on the same token the customer was told if the car was left work wouldn't start for some time.

The vanos job won't take long, could definitely be all done in one business day but when they can actually do the work may be something else entirely.

Sorry for the semi-rant, after working at a small indy shop for a bit I see a few things from different perspectives.

DING DING DING. WINNER winner chicken dinner.

this is what I just got from the shop:

“Hey Julian,

Sorry for the delays. Had to work your car on the schedule. HE started yesterday and I should have some updates for ou today.

Kevin”

[jpy1980]

OP wrote "Felt like a vacuum leak, but now that it says Camshaft timing over advanced or system performance and misfires on all cylinders, not sure what it is. ugh."

In light of what we know now that the pump 4 pistons were damaged (no needle bearing to ride on) then the vanos lost all oil pressure on that day. I wonder why the code reader reported that the cam timing over advanced. With no oil pressure, the two cams should end up at their most retarded position. None of the codes say cam too advanced or retarded.

Are these errors from the event or after you cleared the codes and drove around and they popped up?

Thanks for all the info. This specific code pull is from after the first event. I believe in a later post, I pull codes once more after clearing it.

[sapote]

Slight aside for my understanding - I was under (the probably wrong) impression that oil pressure was needed in order to move the control pistons in either direction? I didn't think that the system auto-returned to a set position in the absence of oil pressure?

There’s a helical splined shaft between piston and cam to convert piston linear motion to cam rotation. So with no oil P, cam rotation converts back to piston linear motion to retard them.

[karter16]

With no oil pressure, the two cams should end up at their most retarded position.

Slight aside for my understanding - I was under (the probably wrong) impression that oil pressure was needed in order to move the control pistons in either direction? I didn't think that the system auto-returned to a set position in the absence of oil pressure?

The BMW VANOS reference states:

“The VANOS control piston (20) for the other camshaft moves out as soon as its first solenoid valve (16) is operated and connects the oil pressure of 100 bar through to the other side of the VANOS control piston.
Since, in those situations, the same oil pressure is applied to both sides of the VANOS control pistons, the pistons only move because of the difference in surface area between their two sides. The oil from the smaller piston chamber is returned to the high-pressure circuit. A particular piston position is held by closing the first solenoid valve in each case (17 or 16). To retract the piston in each case, the oil is allowed to pass back into the sump through the filter (15 or 18) by opening the second solenoid valve (11 or 14).”



Doesn't this mean that in a total sudden oil pressure loss situation that the VANOS would be “stuck” in whatever position it was in at the time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sapote]

I'll get working on the test a little later today. I pulled theses codes via INPA and now I will try and clear it so I can go for a quick drive to get the car up to temp.

its crazy how much more detailed this is compared to the codes I pulled off of my iphone. only if i understood it all haha.

E R R O R M E M O R Y R E P O R T ------------------------------------- Date: 04/29/24 18:48:33 ECU: MSS54DS0 JobStatus: OKAY Variant: MSS54DS0 ------------------------------------------------------------- RESULT: 10 errors in error memory ! -------------------------------------------------------------

139 Tempomatsystem Error frequency : 6 Logistic counter: 38 Error occured 1. times at: Motordrehzahl 1920.00 1/min relative Fuellung 32.80 % Umgebungstemp. CAN 18.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 1.20 h Error occured 2. times at: Motordrehzahl 1880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 33.60 % Umgebungstemp. CAN 18.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.30 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 1.10 h Error occured 3. times at: Motordrehzahl 1920.00 1/min relative Fuellung 25.60 % Umgebungstemp. CAN 19.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.80 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 1.10 h v-Signal unplausibel Fehler momentan nicht vorhanden sporadischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

185 AVANOS1-Regelung Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 40 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min Oeltemperatur TOG 102.00 Grad C Kuehlwassertemp. 85.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.80 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.10 h Istwert zu gross Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

184 EVANOS1-Regelung Error frequency : 2 Logistic counter: 40 Error occured 1. times at: Motordrehzahl 3880.00 1/min Oeltemperatur TOG 101.00 Grad C Kuehlwassertemp. 87.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.70 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.10 h Error occured 2. times at: Motordrehzahl 2040.00 1/min Oeltemperatur TOG 100.00 Grad C Kuehlwassertemp. 83.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.80 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h Istwert zu gross Fehler momentan nicht vorhanden sporadischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

205 Aussetzer Zyl.1 Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

206 Aussetzer Zyl.2 Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

207 Aussetzer Zyl.3 Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

208 Aussetzer Zyl.4 Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

209 Aussetzer Zyl.5 Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

210 Aussetzer Zyl.6 Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler -------------------------------------------------------------

213 Aussetzer mehr Zylinder Abgas Error frequency : 1 Logistic counter: 80 Motordrehzahl 880.00 1/min relative Fuellung 27.20 % Kuehlwassertemp. 82.00 Grad C Versorgungsspannung HR 13.90 V aufgetreten vor (rel. BZ) 0.00 h im Betriebsintervall Fehler momentan vorhanden statischer Fehler ================================================== ===========

I have no idea what these mean but it seems to have to do with the VANOS

OP wrote "Felt like a vacuum leak, but now that it says Camshaft timing over advanced or system performance and misfires on all cylinders, not sure what it is. ugh."

In light of what we know now that the pump 4 pistons were damaged (no needle bearing to ride on) then the vanos lost all oil pressure on that day. I wonder why the code reader reported that the cam timing over advanced. With no oil pressure, the two cams should end up at their most retarded position. None of the codes say cam too advanced or retarded.

Are these errors from the event or after you cleared the codes and drove around and they popped up?

[sapote]

This is what I thought and I even asked if it was the oil pump disk and he said it wasn't. It was the bearing that was there. Not sure what to do at this point.

I did tell them to do the oil pump disk but they said that the exhaust hub was the only thing that needed to be changed.

See attached invoice of what they did.

$150 labor to install the new hub and timing the vanos is not bad.

So they used the VAC ex hub with larger tabs to drive the oil pump (alternative is to drill two new small holes on the pump disk and use the stock hub with smaller driving tabs). This means they kept the original pump disk, then I wonder why the pump 4 pistons seized up and leading to overload the needle bearing and destroyed it. I have seen a few cases with needle bearing seized up like this, but all of them related to using another disk (new after market or mismatch of disk and pistons) that have pistons to disk movement issue (too tight clearance).

[jpy1980]

Also, be aware with any shop, they may have other jobs in front of yours and unless the communication on BOTH sides is there frustrating wait times can occur for the customer.

For example we recently had a customer drop off an Audi for a 100k timing chain service.

We told the customer we had many other cars in front of his but to feel free to drop it off even though it likely will not be up on the lift and work started for at least a week, if not two weeks.

The customer dropped the car off immediately as they didn't feel comfortable driving it until the timing work was complete and sure enough it sat for almost 2 weeks before work commenced.

The job was a rather large one, engine out, multiple timing chains, tensioners etc.

But long story short, we had the job done in 2 business days however the customer was angry as in his perspective we took over 2 weeks to complete this job.

Bad communication on our part unfortunately, we should have been crystal clear about when the car was dropped off vs. work being started.
But on the same token the customer was told if the car was left work wouldn't start for some time.

The vanos job won't take long, could definitely be all done in one business day but when they can actually do the work may be something else entirely.

Sorry for the semi-rant, after working at a small indy shop for a bit I see a few things from different perspectives.

Point taken! Thanks for that. I’m pretty patient but I was a bit more concerned that they found something worse.

[Cubieman]

Also, be aware with any shop, they may have other jobs in front of yours and unless the communication on BOTH sides is there frustrating wait times can occur for the customer.

For example we recently had a customer drop off an Audi for a 100k timing chain service.

We told the customer we had many other cars in front of his but to feel free to drop it off even though it likely will not be up on the lift and work started for at least a week, if not two weeks.

The customer dropped the car off immediately as they didn't feel comfortable driving it until the timing work was complete and sure enough it sat for almost 2 weeks before work commenced.

The job was a rather large one, engine out, multiple timing chains, tensioners etc.

But long story short, we had the job done in 2 business days however the customer was angry as in his perspective we took over 2 weeks to complete this job.

Bad communication on our part unfortunately, we should have been crystal clear about when the car was dropped off vs. work being started.
But on the same token the customer was told if the car was left work wouldn't start for some time.

The vanos job won't take long, could definitely be all done in one business day but when they can actually do the work may be something else entirely.

Sorry for the semi-rant, after working at a small indy shop for a bit I see a few things from different perspectives.

[jpy1980]

Also, slideways is right, they did say that they needed to change the oil due to the needles in the vanos system coming out. So maybe thats why its taking so long.

[jpy1980]

Yea we will see. I sent them another email today so hopefully he responds by tomorrow. Tried calling the shop yesterday and today, but no one picked up. Pretty frustrating, but I just want my car back at this point.

[eacmen]

For only vanos, installation should be within 1 to 2 hrs.

Based on the the fact that OP decided to change the hub, they will need to retime - so maybe add another hour onto that? But yeah, definitely less than a day to do the VANOS.

[sapote]

Question everyone.

how long does it take to change a Vanos system? My car has been in the shop since May 4th. Diagnosing it took awhile which just ended up with me ordering a new Beisan Vanos system which arrived last Thursday. The shop confirmed that it arrived and that they will get their tech to work on it but To date, I haven’t gotten and updates. Would it take a week to install?

For only vanos, installation should be within 1 to 2 hrs.