Everything about Fat Cat Motorsport Suspension

[duracellttu]

Manual seats are only 2 lbs lighter than power seals. CF roof is only 4-8 lbs lighter than a steel slicktop. CSL airbox is
... which jibes-- your corner weights are pretty close to stock.

I try to weight random cars that show up at my house. Your car is pretty in line with where it should be.

Everything adjusted to a half tank, no driver:

This is really helpful. Thank you!

I’m planning to do Recaro CS seat this summer but assume that is a wash weight wise compared to my current manual seats.

[Obioban]

Thanks for sharing. Im struggling to figure out why my corner weights are so high. I have a ZCP model with manual stock seats, CSL airbox, and CF roof for weight savings. I have the front and rear Mason Bars which add some weight. These corners weights were measured with 5/8 tank of gas so not really that much difference.

Manual seats are only 2 lbs lighter than power seals. CF roof is only 4-8 lbs lighter than a steel slicktop. CSL airbox is <10 lbs lighter than stock airbox. Combined, you're less than 20 lbs off stock, minus what you've added back in with the mason bars.

... which jibes-- your corner weights are pretty close to stock.

I try to weight random cars that show up at my house. Your car is pretty in line with where it should be.

Everything adjusted to a half tank, no driver:

[Cronenberged]

That weight is fairly normal for a non stripped down car. Do you have original wiring, interior, glass, and material aside from roof and trunk? duracellttu

[cobra]

I have TCK single adjustable front and rear. I am VERY disappointed. They dont stabilize the car well after 130MPH.

Great suspension should stabile our E46 M3 on rippled pavement even at 175mph. My custom Penske four way adjustable rear shock was MAGIC on my Honda Blackbird motorcycle at 180MPH. Unbelievable stability when high speed/low speed dampening was tuned properly. Once I tuned the shock, I never had to change it for any different type of pavement. Did perfect on the track AND the street!

I want that type ultra high speed stability and versatility for my M3!!!

I would not be using that TCK kit for a track car doing 130mph+. Those are budget twin tube dampers that are probably turning the oil into foam during those high frequency inputs, causing a loss of control. You want gas pressurized monotubes or Ohlins TTX.

[duracellttu]

With me - forget how much fuel. I think it was about 6 gal.


Just the car with 6 gal




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Thanks for sharing. Im struggling to figure out why my corner weights are so high. I have a ZCP model with manual stock seats, CSL airbox, and CF roof for weight savings. I have the front and rear Mason Bars which add some weight. These corners weights were measured with 5/8 tank of gas so not really that much difference.

[bigjae46]

Can you let us know your corner weights as a reference?

With me - forget how much fuel. I think it was about 6 gal.


Just the car with 6 gal




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[Cronenberged]

H&Rs are on sale rn for $1350

[duracellttu]

The doubles are way better. The track car right now is on 400/700 springs. My weight distribution is different than most so optimal spring rates will be different. Never had a stability issue even before I put the aer on.

Can you let us know your corner weights as a reference?

[Obioban]

Last I read several years ago, you were using Ohlins dampers and Turner Motorsport Hybrid Street/Track Camber/Caster Plates.
I know you constantly re evaluate your set up and make improvements. What is your current set up?

I bet you run Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in the street?
Me: 245/40-19 and 275/35-19.

I like to see my tires reach 40PSI hot. My cold temp varies a lot depending on ambient temperature. I have an accurate after market real time temp and pressure senders and a digital monitor for my tires.
Is 40 PSI a good target?

My car would be an easy 300lbs more than yours. Cabrio plus no light weight components, plus heavy Brembos with floating rotors, plus me (Big Dave) at 240lbs.

Caster: Full Camber: -1.75 front -2.00 rear Toe: -0.18 Front -0.23 rear Ride height is max what my TC Klines will give me. My bumper cover clears most curbs and I-95 road debris now.

H&R Front rear anti sway bars. Turner adjustable front links.

How much $$$$$$ are these shocks going to bury my bank account?

I used H&R coilovers as my base point. They're non adjustable shocks, with FCM prefers (for durability, and not screwing it up), ride height adjustable, and work with a variety of springs. My only complaint with using the H&Rs as a starting point is that they're pretty heavy (especially compared to the Ohlins I had before).

I am currently running GC street camber plates. I think the TMS hybrids are better camber plates, but they were back ordered for months when I was putting the FCM setup together, so it wasn't an option. I will switch back to them in the future.

I do run PS4Ss for my street tire, in 245/40-18 and 275/35-18. Sounds like your setup is one profile size too large, currently.

I don't really monitor tire temps/pressures on the street. I run 34psi cold, but my car is 10% lighter than stock. If my car was stock weight, I'd run 35-36psi on the street. On a vert, I'd probably run 36-37psi cold (on the M5 I run 38psi cold, and my M5 is ~vert weight). On track (not on PS4Ss), I start out at ~27psi cold, and adjust pressures after each session based on what the Michelin app tells me to do (I run Michelin tire temp/pressure sensors).

IIRC the H&R coilovers were ~$1500, and then I spent ~$5000 for the FCM services on the shocks. That said, I got every optional extra they offer, so you can get in a starter FCM setup for less (~$3000 was the starting point IIRC).

I run way less camber than most people, street and track, because my ride height is higher than most people-- so I have a way more functional camber curve.

[bigjae46]

I have TCK single adjustable front and rear. I am VERY disappointed. They dont stabilize the car well after 130MPH.

Great suspension should stabile our E46 M3 on rippled pavement even at 175mph. My custom Penske four way adjustable rear shock was MAGIC on my Honda Blackbird motorcycle at 180MPH. Unbelievable stability when high speed/low speed dampening was tuned properly. Once I tuned the shock, I never had to change it for any different type of pavement. Did perfect on the track AND the street!

I want that type ultra high speed stability and versatility for my M3!!!

The doubles are way better. The track car right now is on 400/700 springs. My weight distribution is different than most so optimal spring rates will be different. Never had a stability issue even before I put the aer on.

[Cronenberged]

Last I read several years ago, you were using Ohlins dampers and Turner Motorsport Hybrid Street/Track Camber/Caster Plates.
I know you constantly re evaluate your set up and make improvements. What is your current set up?

I bet you run Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in the street?
Me: 245/40-19 and 275/35-19.

I like to see my tires reach 40PSI hot. My cold temp varies a lot depending on ambient temperature. I have an accurate after market real time temp and pressure senders and a digital monitor for my tires.
Is 40 PSI a good target?

My car would be an easy 300lbs more than yours. Cabrio plus no light weight components, plus heavy Brembos with floating rotors, plus me (Big Dave) at 240lbs.

Caster: Full Camber: -1.75 front -2.00 rear Toe: -0.18 Front -0.23 rear Ride height is max what my TC Klines will give me. My bumper cover clears most curbs and I-95 road debris now.

H&R Front rear anti sway bars. Turner adjustable front links.

How much $$$$$$ are these shocks going to bury my bank account?

I'll believe Obidian is running the H&R Street Performance coilover tuned by FCM. Thats the set up I'll be running and it's not the cheapest set up at around $5500. If you scroll up or back a few pages there is the optimal cheap set up that's around $1400.

[BigDave]

After 15 years of various adjustable shocks (up to quad adjustable remote reservoir JRZs)... it's honestly been pretty great to not be thinking about adjusting the shocks. The shocks are valved for my spring rates and corner weights, so likely I'd just make it worse anyway.

I've also idiot proofed my tire pressures, with the Michelin track connect setup... so all I really have to think about is camber (which I set via pyrometer).

It's relaxing

Last I read several years ago, you were using Ohlins dampers and Turner Motorsport Hybrid Street/Track Camber/Caster Plates.
I know you constantly re evaluate your set up and make improvements. What is your current set up?

I bet you run Michelin Pilot Sport 4S in the street?
Me: 245/40-19 and 275/35-19.

I like to see my tires reach 40PSI hot. My cold temp varies a lot depending on ambient temperature. I have an accurate after market real time temp and pressure senders and a digital monitor for my tires.
Is 40 PSI a good target?

My car would be an easy 300lbs more than yours. Cabrio plus no light weight components, plus heavy Brembos with floating rotors, plus me (Big Dave) at 240lbs.

Caster: Full Camber: -1.75 front -2.00 rear Toe: -0.18 Front -0.23 rear Ride height is max what my TC Klines will give me. My bumper cover clears most curbs and I-95 road debris now.

H&R Front rear anti sway bars. Turner adjustable front links.

How much $$$$$$ are these shocks going to bury my bank account?

[BigDave]

Thanks for the thread and support, gents. However some information is inaccurate and needs correction. Importantly: my consulting rate is $250 per hour and has been for several years. The $125 he's referring to is for a 30 min consultation, which is required. Additional consulting depends upon the number of specific details we need to cover when designing your Elite suspension.

Also, I am returning to my earlier practices of keeping shock dyno data private. I will no longer transmit it electronically or provide printouts. If you come to FCM headquarters, I can show you your final graphs. That's more than any top chef would do! The proof is in the tasting.

Finally, KBO is NOT like Ohlins DFV. Ohlins DFV does no appreciate 'high speed compression' blow-off. Compare this graph and a earlier FCM Elite KBO vs. an Ohlins DFV. The compression blow-off on the Ohlins is like a digressive, vs. the ACTUALLY flatter blow-off of the KBO!




The 'dual flow valve' is doing NOTHING to reduce high speed slope in any way that appears beneficial, certainly not for actual 'curb absorption.' The Kerb Blow-Off technology I have developed assist in truly reducing the high speed compression force build-up and must also be combined with appropriate reduction of high-speed rebound force to minimize jacking down. This is why it's more than just the 'blow-off' on compression that you need, but also a related 'blow-off' on rebound. So it's more correct to describe this as KBO / UltraD (Ultra Digressive) or what I'm pretty much just calling 'FCM Elite Ultimate.'

More accurately, KBO was inspired through my studies of the Penske's regressive valve (initially used on Formula 1 cars to help soften the vertical upset to the chassis from curb strikes at very high road speeds) when designing my Kerb Blow-Off valve. I have actually developed a regressive version of the KBO which I will eventually put on Christina in combination with other technologies. I began with developing a flat blow-off (which is what KBO gives you) and then continued my research and development into a 'regressive' blow-off, like the Penske regressive valve.

===

FCM Elite Stage 2 is still very well-optimized (it includes Ripple Reducer) and I'm careful to tune the compression and rebound forces to minimize jacking down (excessive rebound) and launching (excessive compression). An FCM Elite Stage 2 build is superior to any product on the market.

For those who want the best of everything, you'll want FCM Elite Stage 3 Ultimate. I can use my full arsenal of technologies and methods that help me optimize the suspension's response at a VERY wide range of road conditions - from lightly rippled roads to medium-sized rollers, to large 'bottom the suspension' kinds of bumps.

I've spent much of the spring and summer refining my methods beyond what I have in Youtube videos - so while the video on KBO does represent some of the behavior I aim for, there's more going on than just KBO.

===

A key point I need to communicate is that I am unlike what you would consider an 'aftermarket suspension vendor.' I create solutions, instead of selling parts. I take your specific, unique needs into account when designing a solution instead of trying to squeeze some off-the-shelf collection of parts into your car. I look at the entire suspension as thoroughly as I can and ensure each key component is considered and changed as required. This can't be overstated! Even using terms like KBO or Ripple Reducer only tells part of the story, as EACH BUILD gets a unique implementation of these technologies! As car weights, spring rates, driver usage, tires / wheels / aero, etc. all differ, how I integrate each technology is different. This is like being taught the basics of a dance step, or a workout routine, and then making your own variations.

The major problem I see with a majority of aftermarket tuners is they make a PART or a KIT and then try to push YOU into their box. I first look at what YOU need, then sculpt and refine the ideas and methods into a final result. This is literally a NEW CREATION for every build!

Their "sell as many parts as we can" approach creates a chaotic experience, and it even sucks for race cars. Ask duracellttu what he thinks of the TC Kline he's partially removed from his car, and what he felt in driving Christina (he was one of a lucky few to get that privilege).

===

Duracellttu is changing from single-adjustable TC Klines and these are two videos I made to show him why his driving experience in Christina was so much more supple and composed than the TC Klines:

E46 M3 TC Kline front dyno tests

E46 M3 TC Kline rear dyno tests

I'll look forward to adding his FCM Elite Stage 3 testimonials to this page, and to the website! Then Ian's later on
===

If you are curious about why there are testimonials like this:

then you can educate yourself on some of the methods I am using. The 3 Keys of Ride Harmony (VIDEO) is fundamental. As duracell points out the importance of Flat Ride being the foundation of every FCM Elite build.

And most importantly, get in touch! Refer to the FatCatMotorsports.com website and words directly from me rather than any forum post for specifics on my current business practices. Each thread that particularly inspires you, I want to hear about when you contact me. As always, big thanks to Ian for creating this new forum.

Cheers,
Shaikh

P.S. I'm going to send duracellttu an email with additional needed corrections. As he's a cool guy and already has a set of H&Rs with me for a Stage 3 build, it's all friendly.

I have TCK single adjustable front and rear. I am VERY disappointed. They dont stabilize the car well after 130MPH.

Great suspension should stabile our E46 M3 on rippled pavement even at 175mph. My custom Penske four way adjustable rear shock was MAGIC on my Honda Blackbird motorcycle at 180MPH. Unbelievable stability when high speed/low speed dampening was tuned properly. Once I tuned the shock, I never had to change it for any different type of pavement. Did perfect on the track AND the street!

I want that type ultra high speed stability and versatility for my M3!!!

[bigjae46]

I’m not an expert on the engineering.

This has been my experience. I went from 600/700lb springs at 3000 lbs to 2650lbs. At 3000lbs, the car was well balanced, maybe a tad bit oversteery. At 2650lbs the car was great on smooth tracks. It was horrible on bumpy tracks. I’d literally have to slow to a crawl to get the car to turn in on low speed corners. I was slower than when the car was at 3000lbs.

Flat ride calculated 350/700. Went 400/700 which I think put me at 1.05hz. It was transformative. I’ve since put on 450 springs on the front with no real change in balance. Maybe it could be better but I’m within 1-2 seconds of NASA TT3 records on RRs. And I’ve deleted the rear sway bar and added aero.

I don’t think flat ride is an answer. More of a starting point. I would have spent a lot more time tuning the suspension if I didn’t have the FCM calculator. I think it turns a lot of people off since it goes against common BMW setups.

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[cobra]

E46m3zcp Interesting research. Here are my thoughts...
-Good handling and ride comfort are not mutually exclusive. Maybe people think that stiff=sporty=good handling, but this is simply not the case. Many well set up cars are both comfortable and corner faster than their lowered, bouncy counterpart.
-Flat ride isn't well documented in vehicle dynamics books because it's short sighted. You can't just take a vehicle that we think is cool and say "this is correct, therefore all vehicles must have this parameter". Auto engineers are hindered by compromises and safety standards. Take one of those auto engineers and tell them to design the vehicle with no regard for standards, regulations, or marketing and I bet it will look a lot different.
-The comment on spring frequency is true when chasing perfection, but to completely ignore the basic physics of the system is also silly. For most of us here we can do pretty well for a street setup with some calculations.

I am interested in the pitch and bounce frequency, gonna read up more on those!