CSL vs. 996 GT3

[Andyk]

Ive owned a 996 turbo ( my favourite car as a boy growing up), not same league as a gt3 but it was special just like the csl.
The fact that you are test driving one, says to me you are thinking of buying.

You will have to have great restraint.:thumbs:

M6 is a totally different car, not one bit of rawness, which gt3 and csl have in abundance

I agree about the 996 Turbo. I drove one a month or so ago and it was bonkers fast in any gear. Different car to CSL but def a special bit of kit. Depends what you are after in a car I suppose.

M6 is an interesting car at the current prices...low 30's for a car that cost almost 90k 4 years ago. Not driven one but surely it's the same experience as an M5....which cannot be a bad thing.

[m33ufo]

996 GT3, 2004/54, 20K miles, Porsche plus 1 owner, Porsche Warranty, £43K.

Cosmetically it looked pretty good. A couple of very slight dings in the rear ns flank obviously caused by a car door. I'd hope they could be got behind for a paintless repair. Other than that, few stone chips aside, it was excellent. I like the colour although not typical for a GT3.

Bit of a heavy clutch which could be a sign of clutch wear but then again I've not driven a GT3 before so it could be normal? From cold it was a little "graunchy" going into 3rd and 4th but by the end of the test drive it was smooth. Probably just cold and limited use.

Drove nicely, rear end felt quite loose coming out of corners and the traction control came into play a few times. Lots of power and there was a definite extra kick at 6K. Certainly a car that would take some time to get the best from I think.

Decision....he wouldn't go below £40K (advertised at £43K). I'm still thinking on it but I (probably) don't think it's £10K better than a CSL and the CSL is definitely as much fun. Based on a 40 minute test drive of the GT3!

[Pacman]

Good too hear that a CSL is still top of your list..

Was that the Cobalt blue GT3?

[m33ufo]

Good too hear that a CSL is still top of your list..

Was that the Cobalt blue GT3?

Yes, it is a very nice car and a 40 min test drive didn't do it justice but I do have a soft spot for the CSL.

[Ade]

996 GT3, 2004/54, 20K miles, Porsche plus 1 owner, Porsche Warranty, £43K.

Cosmetically it looked pretty good. A couple of very slight dings in the rear ns flank obviously caused by a car door. I'd hope they could be got behind for a paintless repair. Other than that, few stone chips aside, it was excellent. I like the colour although not typical for a GT3.

dings in the NSR quarter is not easy to get out.

Bit of a heavy clutch which could be a sign of clutch wear but then again I've not driven a GT3 before so it could be normal? From cold it was a little "graunchy" going into 3rd and 4th but by the end of the test drive it was smooth. Probably just cold and limited use.

All GT3s have a reasonably heavy clutch compared to normal cars.

2nd/3rd gear box synchros prone to wear. Expensive to fix if they are worn badly. But they sound OK if they warmed up ok. Mileage is a bit low for synchros to be wearing so soon though unless the gearbox was abused early on. Don't forget - the Mk2 has steel synchros on 2/3 and will always feel slightly more notchy.

Drove nicely, rear end felt quite loose coming out of corners and the traction control came into play a few times. Lots of power and there was a definite extra kick at 6K. Certainly a car that would take some time to get the best from I think.

The GT3 does not have traction control.

6k kick is Variocam. The mk2 has stepless Vario... Mk1 Vario is 2 stage which is more noticeable.

Decision....he wouldn't go below £40K (advertised at £43K). I'm still thinking on it but I (probably) don't think it's £10K better than a CSL and the CSL is definitely as much fun. Based on a 40 minute test drive of the GT3!

Drive a few more for comparison. A GT3 with door dings? Such a car for sale is not consistent with a well cared for GT3 imho.

edited to add>> just seen the cobalt car. Unusual to have comfort seats and it makes it undesirable imho, especially with the dings. Speaks of a road driver who probably wasn't as much an enthusiast (ie, may have left some things uncared for). Must have options on the GT3: Aircon and Recaros.

[m33ufo]

The GT3 does not have traction control.

Well that's a surprise, my driving impression was that it seemed to back off out of corners when I pressed the throttle a bit to eary. Must be me!

The dings were very light, a slight crease from a door edge perhaps but not noticable face on - only when looking down the flank.

[Jeff]

I'd prefer to see a door ding or two. There are a number of GT3's that have had so many panels replaced from punting themselves into walls on track days that I would actually be concerned at a mark free car. I think a car park ding or two at least tells you it hasn't had much recent panel work.

I know of one GT3 that was being sold as "straight" that had been in four separate track day incidents but the panel work was perfect. Now while perfect repairs had been performed on the car to exacting standards, it was still, not in the true definition, a straight car as "straight" is used and implied.

To me it sounds like the car you saw was an honest, used car. I doubt driving any more will change your mind about them. You either want one or you don't - it is pretty much that simple. You're right that you can get the same performance from a CSL for 10K less so if owning a Porsche GT3 is not on the wish list then stick with the CSL.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Bealo]

I had a passenger ride in a 996 GT3 RS with Cups on and was really impressed with it, The grip, poise and top end power were all very good.

The only car that would tempt me away from the CSL at the minute would be a 997 GT3 but they only come in manual shift and i have grown to attached to the flappy paddle gearshift to go back to manual, so for now the CSL is Number 1 :thumbs:

[terryb]

I have to give you my input as I owned an immaculate CSL for a year and replaced with a fantastic Mk1 GT3, albeit a well modified one.

The main points to consider are

• Front end turn-in. The GT3 is immense - it really makes you feel the difference between a front engined car and rear engined (I know that mid engined cars like Elise's feel the same too).
• Steering feel - Again another big plus for the GT3, although it can become too busy and fidgety at lower speeds and sometimes wish it wasn't so communicative - but on the track it's awesome.
• Brakes - simply phenomenal - never experienced such good brakes (although mine are uprated, but still much better than in my old Impreza Race car, which weighed less and had full APs with Pagid race pads)
• Grip - A well set-up GT3 has immense grip - 295 rear tyres and rear engine, say no more - but remember - slow in, fast out!!!! Although I'm finding fast in fast out...
• Noise - both cars sound truly awesome - the induction roar of the CSL sounds like angry thunder whereas the screaming flat 6 of the GT3 is like a ailing banshee - both make you want to press the loud pedal more of the time
• Gearbox - the 6 speed in the GT3 is a very good box, excellent ratios and very positive in action, but the SMGII CSL box os also great and better on the track as you don't need to take your hands off the steering wheel and perfect downshift blips every time - plus the speed of gearchange in S6 is just immense.

At the end of the day, you need to spend more time behind the seat of a GT3 to understand if it is preferable to a CSL and depends how often you plan to use it. It's completely down to individual tastes too.

[m33ufo]

Thanks for the input. It wasn't really a fair comparison - a 40 minute accompanied test drive in a MK2 GT3 compared to having actually owned two previous CSL's - although they were both completely standard examples.

For me, the CSL's box combined with the fantastic induction noise just put it ahead of the GT3. Of course I'm sure the GT3 has many areas that given a little time I'd apprciate.

I'm hopeful that the CSL I'm interested in buying will still actually happen and I'm very looking forward to making a comparison with my previous standard versions and this one with its front/rear AP's and KW suspension.

[Ade]

I have to give you my input as I owned an immaculate CSL for a year and replaced with a fantastic Mk1 GT3, albeit a well modified one.

The main points to consider are

• Front end turn-in. The GT3 is immense - it really makes you feel the difference between a front engined car and rear engined (I know that mid engined cars like Elise's feel the same too).
• Steering feel - Again another big plus for the GT3, although it can become too busy and fidgety at lower speeds and sometimes wish it wasn't so communicative - but on the track it's awesome.
• Brakes - simply phenomenal - never experienced such good brakes (although mine are uprated, but still much better than in my old Impreza Race car, which weighed less and had full APs with Pagid race pads)
• Grip - A well set-up GT3 has immense grip - 295 rear tyres and rear engine, say no more - but remember - slow in, fast out!!!! Although I'm finding fast in fast out...
• Noise - both cars sound truly awesome - the induction roar of the CSL sounds like angry thunder whereas the screaming flat 6 of the GT3 is like a ailing banshee - both make you want to press the loud pedal more of the time
• Gearbox - the 6 speed in the GT3 is a very good box, excellent ratios and very positive in action, but the SMGII CSL box os also great and better on the track as you don't need to take your hands off the steering wheel and perfect downshift blips every time - plus the speed of gearchange in S6 is just immense.

At the end of the day, you need to spend more time behind the seat of a GT3 to understand if it is preferable to a CSL and depends how often you plan to use it. It's completely down to individual tastes too.

Hey Terry,

Nice to hear you enjoying the GT3 A lot of the positives you mention above are because of the extensive mods you have: Alcon brakes + cooling, MMKW suspension and geo, CG wheels, and even small things like the Cup steering wheel and Manthey billet shifter which gives the positive action: the standard gearshift is rubbery in comparison.

If you tried a lesser GT3 in comparison, you'd find it quite blunt and loose in comparison. Enjoy her in good health!
:beer:

[terryb]

LOL - Ade - you are probably very correct in your comments. Whilst the standard CSL is a great car, it is a long way from my/ your old GT3, but then again if you spent similar money on a CSL it would most probably transform that also and be very comparable to my GT3.

One thing is for sure - if I was headed to the Ring, I'd rather drive over in the CSL but drive the track in the GT3, although the CSL was great at the Ring and I'm yet to drive the GT3 there

[Ade]

One thing is for sure - if I was headed to the Ring, I'd rather drive over in the CSL but drive the track in the GT3, although the CSL was great at the Ring and I'm yet to drive the GT3 there

Why don't you come over at the end July for the long weekend?! :thumbs:

[digi]

Yes, I owned a 996GT3 for over 3 years and 30k+ miles. Modded pretty much everything on it during that time courtesy of Manthey and it was a razor sharp track-focussed scalpel when I sold it earlier this year. Out went the GT3, in came the CSL.

I think it depends on what you want to do with the car. The 6Gt3 is a brilliant tool. But I think it is very hard to fall in love with, in the same way the CSL rewards you instantly. The GT3 is all about precision driving, eeking out the fastest and smoothest lines, perfecting your braking approaching the apex, and modulating the throttle at and through the apex. It rewards you in 0.01s against the clock. The GT3 also gives you the sense of occasion on road trips and bragging rights in the paddock... something you never really get with the CSL. If you are chasing 10/10ths on track, relish the attention on the road and in the paddock, then the GT3 is tops (apart from going the Lambo/Fezza route)

But the CSL is, by far, the most fun car I've ever owned! For one, it's understated. SG/SB is about as exciting the colours get, and for most on the road, it's just another 3-series. Flying undercover, imho, is a good thing - especially in this market. The CSL rewards you instantly on track - you can pitch is sideways, in the dry, in the wet, and get away with it. It is easy to drive at 9/10ths (easier than the GT3), and it is the quicker car A-B in real world road conditions. In short, the CSL is an absolute HOOLIGAN!

On track, the GT3 at the limit is tricky - it will teach you how to drive again, steering from the rear, and using the mechanical grip/aero to your advantage. Underestimate it, or overestimate your abilities, and it will bite. Hard and fast.

Depending on how deep your pockets are, you will either find tracking 45k worth of GT3 painless or poor VFM compared to 25-30k of CSL. Especially when the CSL is good enough to give the GT3 a proper dogfight on most circuits (except on power circuits like Spa/Silverstone and if the circuit is clear). At the 'Ring, there is nothing in it except for driver ability. The CSL laps as quickly in pro hands as does the GT3.

On the road, for normal hooning around, the CSL is the better car imho. Add in occasional passengers/urban use etc, and it's a no brainer.

I don't miss the social attention of the GT3... but that's just me. Both cars are equally special - there are touches of the CSL that make it feel very very special. Hold out for the CSL imho

Awesome write up of your experience with both machines. :thumbs:

[m33ufo]

Well...in the end I didn't get either