So who has the most highly modified CSL?

[Bealo]

Remind me nearer the time .

You never did tell me why you got this as opposed to the GTR (I was looking forward to looking after that for you )?

Ok will do.

The reason I didn't buy the Datsun was mainly the trans temp issues on track. They are a fantastic car but when I drove the Porsche I knew it was for me.

How you can call a 996 GT2 ugly is beyond me!!! But you always have had strange taste putting up with that fragile Escort for aslong as you have!

[Mike RT4]

Can we have a "tecnical debating society" sub-forum set up

I get bored of these willy waving POWER threads....

:banghead:

I don't understand why anyone considers an opinion different to their own as "willy waving".

This is why I'm talking to owners who have real world experience to establish what are worth while modifications - get over it :gayfight:.

[sjb]

Basically yes, because I am used to 500+bhp cars and secondly because I'm a seriel modifier ops:.

Just a thought but maybe you are barking up the wrong tree with a csl. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn here but the s54 engine in 'CSL' tune is pretty much at the limit of tune/reliability vs cost/gain. Whilst the engine is and was highly regarded as a masterpiece it is an 'old' engine. And would an extra 35-40hp really be that noticeable? (I say this as my 130hp VW Transporter ain't that much quicker than my mates 84hp one :blalalala: ) just 'because' you can get the extra 35-40hp doesn't mean it's worthwhile..... wouldn't chassis work be more productive around a circuit?
Sometimes you have to admit defeat and just agree, for what it is a CSL is an amazing car standard, I'm limiting my mods to a Brembo BBK because I don't feel right doing any more to it.
JUST my opinion, interesting as always hearing other views.....although the 'my car is faster than your car' is wearing a little thin :whistle:

[Yanto_csl]

I don't understand why anyone considers an opinion different to their own as "willy waving".

This is why I'm talking to owners who have real world experience to establish what are worth while modifications - get over it :gayfight:.

Was tongue in cheek mate....

[chicken]

You said you wanted something that handles, what about an anal atom Or one of those catermaran things?

[deadscoob]

Mike,

Judging by your video, surely spending the money you have set aside for mods on a bt of driver training would be better? :whistle:

[alexk]

Mike I have a solution for you.

These guys have a P54 engine for sale.
http://www.scottsdalemotorsport.com/...ECARPARTS.html

They also have the original P54 headers.

[sjb]

Mike I have a solution for you.

These guys have a P54 engine for sale.

http://www.scottsdalemotorsport.com/BMWE46M3FACTORYRACECARPARTS.html

They also have the original P54 headers.

BUT it's only got 450hp, that'll not be fast enough :hahaha:

[chicken]

There's no explaining a CSL, it's magic

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Really strange thread.

Do not know very much about these
Bang/Bang Pop-Pop things.

Without going off topic to much
does this 800 BHP or whatever
Escort have the WRC Multi Link
rear end fitted, and what sort of
Turbo lag does it run ?

Ford had major Traction problems
at circa 325/350 BHP with the Turbo
Escort and had to re-design the rear end
as the std Mac Struts and Trailing arms
could not cope, hence a totally re-designed
rear Multi Link suspension was required
to handle the Traction issues.

Struts on Trailing arms is Camber and toe
gain hell on a Track.

So does the fire breathing monster run
WRC complete rear end ?

Anything done at the front, Wishbones ?

Turbo lag, I expect many have been
there, mid corner, whoosssh in it comes
and hence maybe the reference to the
right and left armco's at the Ring I am
guessing `?

So do you run an enormus Turbo at very
low Boost to help offset the Lag, or just
try and second guess when its coming
and turn the radio down so you can monitor it
better ?

Heat- what do you do with a Car like this
when the ambient air temp is 32c plus
pit every 2 laps ?
Global Warming if correct does you no favors.
Bit like the GTR, 2 good laps then 3 to
cool it all down if your lucky, or back
to the Pits for 30 mins.
Thats why Nissan fitted Cup Holders.

Was it not the Escort Turbo's that had to run
around with the ''water Kit Aid'' no not
First Aid, water kit aid in the boot, but
not connected or something ?

With all this going on I can uderstand the
attraction of something without boost,
as spending part of the Track day in the
pits cooling down, fumbling for the
Water Kit Aid, or spending so much of each lap
sideways is not really making the best
use of on Track Time.

Interesting car though.

As regards Tuning the S54 ala CSL
if you really believe that 20/30 BHP more
will shave seconds of any given lap
then there are many out just waiting
for your money.

BMW drew the line at Circa 415 BHP on
cost v reliability, its all to conveniently
forgotten.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike RT4]

Hi,

Really strange thread.

Do not know very much about these
Bang/Bang Pop-Pop things.

I can tell that from your comments below, so let's address each point .

Without going off topic to much
does this 800 BHP or whatever
Escort have the WRC Multi Link
rear end fitted, and what sort of
Turbo lag does it run ?

It's a baby engine with only 550PS and 685Nm. No it doesn't have the WRC set up, but it does have a fully adjustable (camber and toe) 6deg rear beam, which is an improvement on the 9 deg mag arm of the Grp A cars and removes the bump steer issues of the OE arrangement.

Regarding turbo lag, it has none to speak of, due to the roller bearing core on the turbo and switchable ALS (Anti Lag System). However, I guess that is not what you really mean as turbo lag is the loss of boost between gear changes and the time it takes to regain the boost in up or down shifts. I suspect what you're really asking is what the boost threshold is like (which is the rpm point that the turbo makes full boost). Well here is the dyno graph to answer that question:

As you can see it makes good boost from 3250rpm onwards (much better than lots of other factory turbo cars even. This is achieved by a roller bearing core turbo, relatively high compression and a Mountune WRC roller barrell intake system (which changes the standard single throttle butterfly arrangement to individual throttle arrangement per cylinder (like the Cecil's).

Ford had major Traction problems
at circa 325/350 BHP with the Turbo
Escort and had to re-design the rear end
as the std Mac Struts and Trailing arms
could not cope, hence a totally re-designed
rear Multi Link suspension was required
to handle the Traction issues.

Struts on Trailing arms is Camber and toe
gain hell on a Track.

So does the fire breathing monster run
WRC complete rear end ?

Anything done at the front, Wishbones ?

It was not just the traction, the OE set up had horrendous bump steer issues. The wheel actually proscribed an arc in its suspension travel, going from negative camber in full compression to positive camber in full droop, along with the toe changing as well, so the redesign was to remove the constantly variable suspension geometry. My beam now has no bump steer issues and is fully adjustable.

The front end is standard and although the front roll centre is lower than the rear, it's not too bad in the dry, but does push on a bit if you go in too hard in the wet (but the so do most cars ).

Turbo lag, I expect many have been
there, mid corner, whoosssh in it comes
and hence maybe the reference to the
right and left armco's at the Ring I am
guessing `?

There you go again - confusing lag with boost threshold LOL. Obviously with it being a turbo and the way the torque ramps up over a short rpm range, there is definitely a particular driving style you have to adopt with it: this involves a certain amount of anticipation, but is similar to driving a responsive rear wheel drive - you give it power in a corner EXPECTING that it is going to break traction, so you're ready with the opposite lock to catch it - pretty simple really . As you can see, providing you're above 3250rpm, then it's not too bad :blalalala:. Not really much different to keeping a pesky NA engine on cam :gayfight:.

So do you run an enormus Turbo at very
low Boost to help offset the Lag, or just
try and second guess when its coming
and turn the radio down so you can monitor it
better ?

Depends what you call enormous? It's a custom built T4 that flows 48lb of air at 2.2 bar, it's large compared to OE turbos, but small compared to what is needed to achieve 800bhp from a 2.2 litre.

It's hard to hear the radio above the transmission .

Heat- what do you do with a Car like this
when the ambient air temp is 32c plus
pit every 2 laps ?
Global Warming if correct does you no favors.
Bit like the GTR, 2 good laps then 3 to
cool it all down if your lucky, or back
to the Pits for 30 mins.
Thats why Nissan fitted Cup Holders.

You're making assumptions LOL. Didn't anyone ever tell you about those ?
It has cooling system that allows full use of the power in all weathers. The intercooler is 100mm thick with massive surface area.

For the engine cooling it has an increased capacity radiator, plus a secondary one as well, along with running a waterless coolant that doesn't boil until over 200deg C, all of which prevents localised hot spots from super heating the coolant and raising the temperature to a dangerous level. As you can see it also has a thermostatically controlled oil cooler to supliment the OE water cooled Mocal item.

Was it not the Escort Turbo's that had to run
around with the ''water Kit Aid'' no not
First Aid, water kit aid in the boot, but
not connected or something ?

You're referring to the water injection arrangement that ALL rally teams used to maintain charge air temps (required because the cars being sideways a lot of the time, don't always have direct air flow through the intercoolers. Mine also has this set up fitted, but with the intercooler fitted, I haven't seen the water injection light come on for several years (activated by the ECU when charge temps exceed 44 deg C)

With all this going on I can uderstand the
attraction of something without boost,
as spending part of the Track day in the
pits cooling down, fumbling for the
Water Kit Aid, or spending so much of each lap
sideways is not really making the best
use of on Track Time.

Again you're making assumptions LOL. The tyres get hot before anything else does (as you can see from this video)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4onG...e_gdata_player
It beeps at the start because the pressures have been dropped and it's giving the low warning alarm. Once they get up to pressure (with some heat in them) it then turns off. Towards the end of the session, the tyres start to overheat (the alarm trips when they go above 80 deg C). However, as I can see some good scalps in the distance, I elect to ignore the alarm until I've reeled them in and had a "play". Not wanting kill the tyres, I then chose to come in and let everything cool for the next session. Not being a car that is used on a daily basis, it has been properly prepped for track work :blalalala:.

Interesting car though.

Thanks. However, they say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I would suggest you stick to Cecils .

As regards Tuning the S54 ala CSL
if you really believe that 20/30 BHP more
will shave seconds of any given lap
then there are many out just waiting
for your money.

BMW drew the line at Circa 415 BHP on
cost v reliability, its all to conveniently
forgotten.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Seeing as I don't time my laps, the extra power wasn't for shaving any time off, the idea was to just make the car more exciting to drive. However, having done some in depth research over the last few days, I can see that the S54 as you have already mentioned, is already on the limit (piston speed is extremely high for a production car), so I think I would probably only end up blue printing the engine to ensure it was in rude health and actually had the power that BMW claim for it.

If a normal E46 M3 engine came along for the right money, it might even be worth stripping one down to see if any improvements could be made with some lighter reciprocating parts. IMO there's not a production car out there that can't be improved, as manufacturers have to build a certain degree of safey margin into things to allow for 100,000 + mile life span. I'm not requiring that kind of longevity :blalalala:.

[sjb]

You appear to have finally answered your own questions in your last two paragraphs.
Good luck coaxing any more useful hp out of the S54, it sounds like you are far better at that than BMW Motorsport.
Best of luck too making the CSL 'more exciting to drive'.
I look forward to your results.

[Neil M]

If a normal E46 M3 engine came along for the right money, it might even be worth stripping one down to see if any improvements could be made with some lighter reciprocating parts. IMO there's not a production car out there that can't be improved, as manufacturers have to build a certain degree of safey margin into things to allow for 100,000 + mile life span. I'm not requiring that kind of longevity :blalalala:.

There are lots on available on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-3-2-SMG-Engine-S54-B32-/321026618930?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Plat_Gen%3AE46|Cars+Type%3AM3+3.2&hash=item4abead7632

[alexk]

Is this your current setup ?
If yes, I don't see TTX dampers. These are monotube inverted.
Are you running TTX (only) at the back ?

[shane@mbtech]

Definitely Ohlins in that Pic Alex from what I can see.