Alcon brake kits

[shane@mbtech]

The Alcon does have more pedal travel. But not enough to cause any issue at all.

I have a set of AP, K Sport, and Alcons all sat in my workshop. I'm fitting the Alcon. If they were that bad I wouldnt fit them.

For a road car that does a couple of trackdays they are 100% fine. :beer:

[Rick H]

The Alcon does have more pedal travel. But not enough to cause any issue at all.

I have a set of AP, K Sport, and Alcons all sat in my workshop. I'm fitting the Alcon. If they were that bad I wouldnt fit them.

For a road car that does a couple of trackdays they are 100% fine. :beer:

Yep, I'm not saying Alcons are bad by any stretch - its just I'm trying to understand why APs are favoured. If the pedal travel issue is removed from the equation with pre-load and everything else is like for like (lines/fluid/pads) - do APs and Alcons become effectively the same?

Pedal travel is a personal pref I guess, I would prefer to have shorter travel - other drivers will prefer longer travel.

[SamT]

You can't compare ap5000 with Alcon kit.

Sam is rich. Schirmer likes a rich mofo. So Sam has the dogs danglies and I don't blame him. If I could afford them I would have them.

Tell you what Lawsy, after meeting Tom I'm not that 'Rich' any more mate :bigcry:


Please don't misunderstand me here Rick.....The Alcon brakes are MINT (Hence they've gone on my CS) and with them on you can out brake most things on track (even in a heavy ole M3), and I was doing alot more than a couple of trackdays last year!

Yes, there is more travel with them, (but much less than standard) but like Lawsy says, that does not cause a problem, and you soon get used to it. Although, like you Rich, i prefer a higher pedal to stamp on .... but then, it was alot easier to Heel and Toe with the Alcons as the pedals were bang in line (not that you need to do that in a CSL)

I cant prove this, but I think in a Lab, with the same pads (and standard discs that come with kits) there probably ain't that much difference in them. Tom Schirmer has developed his own set up based on thousands of laps on hundreds of cars at the ring, and essentially only fits the best of the best stuff (the most expensive) and has lots of 'secret' tweaks that he does to bring the whole package together (don't forget, Brakes don't work in isolation of other systems i.e. Suspension and Geometry) and the cumulative effect of all this gives you confidence to brake later and harder.....but its not just the brakes that are doing it, if you get my drift.

I think the RS29's are £400 F+R and the endless pads are around €1400 F+R ...... so that gives you an idea of the differences in price to get that extra % in performance!

[octainejunkee]

I know this kit wont- but would it be possible to get a kit that fits the 1M?

Cheers Jamie

[nigt3]

Yep, I'm not saying Alcons are bad by any stretch - its just I'm trying to understand why APs are favoured. If the pedal travel issue is removed from the equation with pre-load and everything else is like for like (lines/fluid/pads) - do APs and Alcons become effectively the same?

Pedal travel is a personal pref I guess, I would prefer to have shorter travel - other drivers will prefer longer travel.

I went for Alcons, reason being the ap discs are't the best and could'nt be arsed spending more money buying performance friction discs!! Personally I think either or is pretty good

[shimmy]

I went for Alcons, reason being the ap discs are't the best

Myth

[northernjim]

its just I'm trying to understand why APs are favoured.

Shimmy has got them, and we all do as he says...... ( or else...:gayfight

[shimmy]

Shimmy has got them, and we all do as he says...... ( or else...:gayfight

I've also got a CSL Jim, what happened there

[nigt3]

Myth

Mr schirmer strikes again then!!

[northernjim]

I've also got a CSL Jim, what happened there

don't need a csl to keep up with you....:finga: just the brakes to slow me down :smokin:

[shimmy]

don't need a csl to keep up with you....:finga: just the brakes to slow me down :smokin:

I think you were faster in the Focus jimbob. :-D

[SamT]

Mr schirmer strikes again then!!

did he say....."Dis is Sh*t" by any chance :-D

[BMWZ4MC]

Just to throw my 2 pennyworth into this....I started out with the Alcon CSL Cup brakes on the white M3, but have now converted to AP Pro 5000 with PFC discs and Endless Race pads (the Alcon set up went on my blue CS Yesterday with RS29's)

The reason i switched is that I love the Endless pads, but unfortunately there isn't enough clearance to fit them in the Alcon Callipers as they come with 25mm of meat on, and from memory the Alcons only accept a 17mm Pad....so you end up machining off 8mm of pad material to get them to fit.....being a Yorkshireman this hurt like you wouldn't believe :bigcry: .....Plus Schirmer said i could do one if i didnt convert :-D

The new set up is simply stunning on track, a significant improvement over the alcons with RS29's.....but conversley I agree wholeheartedly with what Lawsy said about the Alcons being alot better for the road. The initial bite from the AP's is brutal....and i mean brutal (so much so that even though I've done a couple of days at the ring on them, i am still all over the place with braking points, yes shimmy, part of my excuse for Monday at Bedford )

So, my advice would be, that if you use your car on the road fit the Alcons (they are 200% better than standard) but if your building an out and out track/race car then go with the AP/PFC/Endless setup....but be prepared to peel your eyebrows off the windscreen :thumbs:

BMWZ4MC ..... I'm in Rye on the Kent/Sussex border, if you wanna pop over and see/ try out both set ups your more than welcome

Thanks for the offer Sam. I'm in Oz until the end of next month, but I might take you up on the offer when I get home.
I've had a look at the AP Pro 5000 kit and read a few reviews. It looks awesome...and so it should be at that price:hahaha: Unfortunately, I'll be dipping rather too deeply into my supercharger fund if I go down that route.
I will keep my Z4M road registered, but it'll see a lot of track time too. I was encouraged to see that you said in another post that with the Alcon set up you could out brake most things on the track - from your experience with your CSL and CS, do you think the Alcons with RS29s will give consistent pedal feel and no fade over 20-30 minute hard driving on the track? Also, am I right in thinking that the Alcon CSL Cup BBK that you had is the same as the Alcon Advantage Extreme but with a Thorney Motorsport paint job on the calipers? Lastly, did you find that the longer pedal travel a disadvantage with track use? I find heel and toe can be difficult in my Z4 as the throttle pedal is set too low, so longer brake pedal travel may be helpful for me.
Thanks again for the advice chaps and sorry for so many questions - the Z4 forum has fewer regular track drivers as the majority have roadsters with smaller engines...

[nigt3]

did he say....."Dis is Sh*t" by any chance :-D

Sam, how did you Quess that!!:wink:

[SamT]

Thanks for the offer Sam. I'm in Oz until the end of next month, but I might take you up on the offer when I get home.
I've had a look at the AP Pro 5000 kit and read a few reviews. It looks awesome...and so it should be at that price:hahaha: Unfortunately, I'll be dipping rather too deeply into my supercharger fund if I go down that route.
I will keep my Z4M road registered, but it'll see a lot of track time too. I was encouraged to see that you said in another post that with the Alcon set up you could out brake most things on the track - from your experience with your CSL and CS, do you think the Alcons with RS29s will give consistent pedal feel and no fade over 20-30 minute hard driving on the track? Also, am I right in thinking that the Alcon CSL Cup BBK that you had is the same as the Alcon Advantage Extreme but with a Thorney Motorsport paint job on the calipers? Lastly, did you find that the longer pedal travel a disadvantage with track use? I find heel and toe can be difficult in my Z4 as the throttle pedal is set too low, so longer brake pedal travel may be helpful for me.
Thanks again for the advice chaps and sorry for so many questions - the Z4 forum has fewer regular track drivers as the majority have roadsters with smaller engines...

First off......the Schirmernator is not, i repeat NOT a CSL....it's way better than that LOL....I wish!!!

The Alcons with RS29's will be outstanding for the use you envisage, i never suffered any brake fade that i can remember, and do like a good 40mins/60mins before coming in off track....the endless race stuff is designed to last a 24hr race, so maybe way over spec for what you require.

They look similar to me, but without seeing the spec sheets?? Lawsy or someone else in the know can maybe confirm that for you....if anything they will be better i would have thought?

HnT will be much easier, the travel means the pedals are bang in line and you don't have to twist your ankle as much.

With regards to SC....be very very careful!!...I don't know loads of people who've done it, but with the few i do, none has ended well!.....Persistent messing about sorting out overheating issues, eventually culminating in rapid disassembly, they seem to be fine in normal life, but when driven hard for prolonged periods on track, especially in summer!!.........For me you'd be much better taking that money and talking to Jon at JC Racing in Thirsk and getting a bomb proof BHP upgrade.....years of trouble free dicking about on track!!!.....i'm not sure of the packaging on a Z4M but you could also maybe get a CSL airbox to fit??.. she'll sound proper then too!