What do you think about the M3 GTS?

[_Nathan_]

15 seconds per lap not far away?

Over a 24 hour race how many times would the e46 be lapped? :bigcry:

Don't answer, it is rhetorical :blalalala:

Oh yeah, and just to confirm, was the e46 running a straight six?

[alexk]

Nathan I said to compare apples with apples.
The race cars are from different years, differentt tyres etc.
Also the E92 has a massive advantage due to the transaxle gearbox.
Therefore I don't consider the 15sec laptime difference showing the superiority of the e92 chassis.

You mentioned the superiority of the E92 chassis and right after you said the Schirmer E92s might have 20k axle upgrades.
So it looks like an E92 with maybe 100k euros in upgrades is faster than a CSL with 20k euros in upgrades.
What a success.

Seriously, I would be very interested to know what the Schirmer cars have.

[Mike RT4]

Seriously, I would be very interested to know what the Schirmer cars have.

Ask Sam, he was socialising with the other Schirmer drivers, so he should know or be able to find out. I managed to collar the driver of the white car (pictured in my DN9 photos) and asked all the questions apart from exactly what was done to the suspension regarding the "revised kinematics".

[northernjim]

Not heard of anyone doing a 7:25 BTG in a completely standard car even with the proper flying start, 25 seconds over a lap is a lifetime, even on a long track. Most of the guys doing 7:40ish BTG laps have dampers, brakes, weight removed, wider front wheels etc.

Anyway, my point stands, over multiple laps a standard GTS would leave a standard CSL for dead IMO, modified further still.

E92 has much more potential than e46, just expensive to unlock it.

.

As gorilla pointed out, at the speeds you need to drive at, 25 seconds is a massive amount....

Are you surprised they only managed 30 more bhp over the 4.0 E92 M3?

apparently the 4.4 only needs a few restrictions removing to allow an easy extra 50bhp - as said by the bmw engineers at Maisach on the trip

Nathan I said to compare apples with apples.
The race cars are from different years, differentt tyres etc.
Also the E92 has a massive advantage due to the transaxle gearbox.
Therefore I don't consider the 15sec laptime difference showing the superiority of the e92 chassis.

You mentioned the superiority of the E92 chassis and right after you said the Schirmer E92s might have 20k axle upgrades.
So it looks like an E92 with maybe 100k euros in upgrades is faster than a CSL with 20k euros in upgrades.
What a success.

Seriously, I would be very interested to know what the Schirmer cars have.

The Schirmer cars have whatever the owner is willing to pay for, I've been in 3, all were mightily impressive - definitely the 3 fastest laps I've had,and in different states of upgrade depending on the depths of your pocket.

I think the point is that with the csl, BMW did a really good job developing the e46, and it is already a classic and rightly so a 360bhp 20thC design chassis is only going to go so far, The GTS on the other hand looks like a parts bin car, and isn't the deserved pinnacle of the E90 M3,that it should be Tom's cars are IMO what bmw should have done with the V8m3, but the newer chassis and engine - who can argue that an older car is better then the newer more developed version of it?

[_Nathan_]

The e92 has an advantage from the transaxle but no mention of a complete engine swap for the e46

Jim is correct, it is called progress, do you really think the BMW engineers would be happy making a chassis worse than the previous generation.

[alexk]

but the newer chassis and engine - who can argue that an older car is better then the newer more developed version of it?

In stock form the older car is significantly superior.
In tuned format, I think the faster car (apart from cases that the chassis design is completely different // for example E30 vs. E46) will be the one that had the most money invested.
So back to my point, I don't think there is a CSL that is so tuned to compare it against the E92 M3s of Schirmer.
Nathan said there is no CSL doing 7:05 BTG and I believe there is no CSL so tuned like the E92 M3 that does 7:05 BTG.
Most probably it won't be as fast, but it might be 7:07 BTG (remember the 2 sec lap difference of the M3 GTS?).

So until there is a CSL so tuned, I wouldn't be throwing such statements.

PS: the CSL loaded is doing full lap @ 7:22 in damp conditions. What BTG is this ?

[_Nathan_]

One of those M3s did a 7:22 full lap with a standard engine So what, 200+ bhp less, and no doubt more weight. But hey, the chassis is worse.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

All I can say is that I am not sure the
BMW E90/92/93 Chassis is really progress.

I think its better than the E46 single wishbone
front and Trailing arm rear, but I believe that
BMW had a problem with the E90 and that was
making it handle, due to its weight.

E34 ran a double wishbone front [wishbone and tension link]
all fitted to a Mac Strut, and Merc have run various
versions of the 5 link rear since 1983.

Go drive a E34 M5 and even the std car will turn in very
sharpley and its almost 2 ton.
E34 M5 runs 520i dampers with a proressive spring
so it not trick is it.

Not exactly progress to be running suspension that
has been around since the 80/90's.

A 5 Link rear will give almost double A arm dynamics
but not at the expense of ride quality.
Double wishbone front will give much better scrub
etc and not suffer the same amount of camber and toe
gains [does not pivot in the centre, the two
links are offset] than the E46 Single wishbone does, and then there
is virtually no flex with the double link front,
which is an inherent problem to any single alloy wishbone.

5 Link rear also allows for 'true' ramp angles
on the rear which when running a Plated Diff
translates into correct friction when loaded and
no drag on the overrun.

If your LSD is working hard in the corners then
the fact is your more than likely going slower.

Go look at the rear of most E46's that have been
lowered and the rear halfshafts will be inverted,
which is exactly the opposite you want when running
a Plated LSD.

Its why the ALMS E46 ran no rear subframe, ScHnitzer
had already raised the diff to beyound the restrictions
of the E46 rear subframe / diff carrier, trying to correct
the ramp angles to amke the diff work correctly.

The 20k package or whatever it is on the rear of Shrim cars
is a pure case of Sales B/S.

Plated diff aside, all you can do to a 5 link rear is fit
alloy arms and rod ends, if not already fitted,
so no wonder they smile everytime they sell one.

Most 5 link rear end suffer from 0.5 degree camber gain
and no more than 30 secs on toe, how the
fuck do you spend the thick end of 20k on improving
that ? simple by lining up Hans Stuck wanabes'
and taking them for a spin in the ''magic car''.

The other amusing thing is that we now have a
E46 GTR at approx 1250 kgs with around 480 BHP
almost being beaten on time over distance by a
stripped out Road car that is nearly 100kgs heavier with less
power.

Funny how with all the things that change in motorsport
that there are still 60 secs to a minute, well in most cases.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

The other amusing thing is that we now have a
E46 GTR at approx 1250 kgs with around 480 BHP
almost being beaten on time over distance by a
stripped out Road car that is nearly 100kgs heavier with less
power.

Based on the following video of this 'close to stock' M3 GTS // with brakes, Nitron suspension, akrapovic exhaust and michelin cup tyres; it is so close to the E46 M3 GTR.

8:47 the E46 M3 GTR with slick tyres
9:13 the Schirmer close-to-stock M3 GTS

So the black car (with stock engine) in the picture is even faster (7:22 full lap instead of the 7:28 of this stock GTS).
I reckon they could claim that the Schirmer road-car E92 M3 with-stock-engine could be faster than the E92 M3 GT2, if ran on slicks.

Now is it just me that fails to understand how this could be realistic ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxlRTsnughI

PS: has anyone seen the laptimes of non-factory racing VLN cars ?

[_Nathan_]

all you can do to a 5 link rear is fit
alloy arms and rod ends

You can change mounting points, you can change arm lengths, I'd assume both of these are done if they have claimed to alter the kinematics which is effectively them saying they've altered the paths through which the wheel moves.

[Mike RT4]

This is Schirmer's E90 running an E46 engine tuned to 405bhp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4fPfUnK40&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[_Nathan_]

just for comedy value, that same car is at the very front of this lot, look how much of a gap it opens up by the time the camera car exists druids!

It is a real 405bhp too IMO, unlike half the figures thrown about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kVp2Bn5NWc

[E46CSL]

Good old Angus.:beer:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Nathan- you can change anything but yoi
will gain nothing by chainging the pickups
on a 5 link save a Big Headache.

Its the same as a double A arm suspension
once its optimised its optimised, all you can do
is basically lighten it.

Point being, it only works if its more
or less optimsed out the box.

For sure the Shrim set up will run a bit more
Camber and toe, now that it has adjustable
links, and some lighter wishbones now that
the Shock / Spring is a Coilovers but that's about it.

Invariable on a 5 link if you alter the pickups
then it all changes, which throws up issues
like half shaft length, Upright pitch,
Scrub and so on.

The Shrim set up will be on par with what
Derek Musch does and what Sven Kruger
offers at KK.

https://www.musch-motorsport.com/en/projects/cars/bmw-gt3-2010/

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[M&N]

Love all the comments so far. Having owned a CSL for 7 years & using it on track regularly I feel I can comment on the 2 cars. The CSL is a fantastic car especially after having the brakes, suspension upgraded & a remap to bring the car from 340hp tp 366hp. The GTS is a completely different car, it feels more like our CSL AFTER all of the changes. The gearbox is a massive improvement & as much as I love the straight six engine, the V8 in the GTS is fantastic. We have put the GTS on a Dyno to compare it with a standard M3 & we were very surprised (standard M3 380hp compared to GTS 457hp!). After all the Pros & Cons about both cars, I love the GTS but I would still have a CSL tomorrow! :thumbs: