ok, another temperature issue

[Ade]

.

Part Number for the 55 degree Water Stat at Turners is-
11531417215, although I have purchased 2 from the
local dealer, as it is a BMW part.

Is the cost of the part expensive? What's the complexity of installation?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Lawsy- I did not think I was contradicting myself,
I was trying to get across the point that on shorter
Circuits etc, engine load is usually higher hence the
oil cooling is insufficiunet and the water temp will creep
up due to this.

On more open type Power circuits, engine load can decrease
slightly but oil temp can remain high
although the water temp can periodically drop to a point where the std
water thermostat closes, which is not good.

Point was, that increasing Oil cooling capacity and ensuring
that the water thermostat stays open, greatly assists with
keeping fluid temps in their operating range when using
the car on Track.

With regard Data, I have a DL1 in my Car but I have not used in ages.

Bealo- increasing the size of the oil cooler or fitting a piggy back
type cooler, is quite straight forward, use the Turner or Vac Oil
cooler adapter take off kit, and then you can use whatever size
lines and run them where you want.

Changing the water stat is a five minute job, but if your car is
also a road car that see winter use in the UK, keep the std
stat and put in back in for the winter period, as it will
help with internal heater / blower.

Part Number for the 55 degree Water Stat at Turners is-
11531417215, although I have purchased 2 from the
local dealer, as it is a BMW part.

Part number at Turners for the Oil hose take off adapter is-
TEN9910200. Vac also do this kit.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com

I would guess that many of the S54 Race cars run the
std outer thermostat 'ring' to ensure correct water circulation
but have removed the stat itself, unless regs state otherwise.

On my own Car I have converted to an Oil / Water heat
exchanger and use the air cooled oil cooler as back up.
You guys with cars with warranties would more than likely have
them invalidated, so no use to you.

Hope that helps,

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Bealo]

I would be interested to hear the views of the UK tuners/racers on this issue.

But it seems to me that most of us on here frequent the track and i for one am interested in a group buy for the oil coolers and 55 degree tropical stat.

Who has decent contacts in the trade who could give us a good price?

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Lawsy- no disrespect but you have not read the thread
correctly.

Oil Stat opens at 97 degrees not water.

With a 88 degree std S54 water thermostat, your water does not
just reach temp and stay there, it fluctuates all the
time, hence why the electric fan cuts in and out.

So at somewhere like Spa or the Ring, the water temp
can on parts of those circuits drop below 88 degrees
and the thermostat shuts. Not good.

But your oil can still be high, hence by having a 55 degree
stat in the water system once its open it will never shut
while on a Track, unless your Ice Racing !!!

This helps with cooling the Thermal Store.

Means a couple more minutes in the Pits warming
up, from cold start, but a small price to pay
compared to an engine rebuild.

Hope that explains it.

Most S54's sent to BMW rated Tropical Areas are sent with the
55 degree water thermostat for this very reason.

I sent this mornings reply direct to admin as I could
not get it to up load due to connection problems at
this end.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

No disrespect but i think you have misread my post, and have my car mixed up with another car.

I neither "cruise" or "dream" My car had its arse kicked all day, albeit not the hottest day, my oil temp was at 125c but my coolant temp never budged all day from halfway.

My csl does not have an electric fan. But if it did would this not just be to drop the temp down from say 100c?

Im not doubting what you are saying but you are contradicting yourself slightly,

"So at somewhere like Spa or the Ring, the water temp
can on parts of those circuits drop below 88 degrees
and the thermostat shuts. Not good.

But your oil can still be high, hence by having a 55 degree
stat in the water system once its open it will never shut
while on a Track, unless your Ice Racing !!!"



but your earlier statement says....

"Move onto the Track, now at 97 degrees oil temp and say
95 degrees water temp, lets do 5 good laps of say Brands or Coombe, engine will be between 60-90% full load for around 80% of the time. Engine rpm window is 6-8000 rpm Air flow through the oil Cooler as compared to a Motorway has dropped by at leat 50% even more if your a slow driver following in another cars turbelent air, and the water temp is now slowly creeping up , why, because as oil temp rises, so will water temp as the water has do effect more cooling due to rising oil temp in the block, ie engine acts as a thermal store."

This quote shows you saying the oil getting hot WILL cause the coolant temp to rise significantly. But your later posts says the coolant does drop below 88c even on track.


I am taking in what you are saying, and i am constantly striving for good input and your posts are both informative and factual, and i agree about the oil temps but the op was talking about his cooling guage showing near the red which in my eyes shows a certain cooling problem,

Are you saying that the fact that it had a normal stat contributed to his car now getting hot?

Im genuinely interested in what you are saying, i did understand your first post completely.

Have you got datalogging from say spa to show this drop in water temp
How do you know the coolant temps dropped below 88c. What where your oil temps at this point if your oil temps are closely linked with coolant temps?

I am definitely thinking of running an oil cooler on mine as i was not happy with my oil temps on track.

So you think we should run the tropical stat? do you have part number for this?

I am not being funny with my posts i am just trying to gather as much info to keep my engine from exploding as possible, although i do have warranty on mine which i plan on renewing next year.

Regards

Lawsy

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Lawsy- no disrespect but you have not read the thread
correctly.

Oil Stat opens at 97 degrees not water.

With a 88 degree std S54 water thermostat, your water does not
just reach temp and stay there, it fluctuates all the
time, hence why the electric fan cuts in and out.

So at somewhere like Spa or the Ring, the water temp
can on parts of those circuits drop below 88 degrees
and the thermostat shuts. Not good.

But your oil can still be high, hence by having a 55 degree
stat in the water system once its open it will never shut
while on a Track, unless your Ice Racing !!!

This helps with cooling the Thermal Store.

Means a couple more minutes in the Pits warming
up, from cold start, but a small price to pay
compared to an engine rebuild.

Hope that explains it.

Most S54's sent to BMW rated Tropical Areas are sent with the
55 degree water thermostat for this very reason.

I sent this mornings reply direct to admin as I could
not get it to up load due to connection problems at
this end.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shane@mbtech]

Gorilla sent me this :thumbs: not looking good for you boys

my engine done this before i got a new 1 :whistle:




Most Euro S54 engine's leave the factory with the 88 degree water thermostat, which is useless in warm weather for Track Work on a CSL.

Anybody who says that running an engine at 125 c oil temp for extended periods is ''OK'' should be forced to pick up all and any engine rebuilds.

The CSL is compromised in its cooling department.

Those that say I can do 5/6 laps or whatever on a Track at full this and full that and the temp guage is fine, are either 'crusing around or dreaming'.

The S54 oil stat opens at around 95/97 degrees, and the only thing that stops it going higher is the std oil cooler.

Fine if on a Motorway where even at speeds of 120 the engine is not under full load, revs not much more than 5/6000 and the air flow through the oil cooler and the water rad are fine.

Move onto the Track, now at 97 degrees oil temp and say
95 degrees water temp, lets do 5 good laps of say Brands or Coombe, engine will be between 60-90% full load for around 80% of the time. Engine rpm window is 6-8000 rpm Air flow through the oil Cooler as compared to a Motorway has dropped by at leat 50% even more if your a slow driver following in another cars turbelent air, and the water temp is now slowly creeping up , why, because as oil temp rises, so will water temp as the water has do effect more cooling due to rising oil temp in the block, ie engine acts as a thermal store.

10-60 Sythentic oil at prolonged periods, at over 120 c is causing damage.

For those that do Track Work, at a pure absolute minimum fit the Tropical S54 Thermostat which opens at 55 degrees, and either enlarge the std oil cooling by fitting a piggy back one like Turners sell, pricey, or fit a larger oil cooler than the standard.


Thus when the oil gets to 97 degrees even at full engine load and only 50 % air flow, the oil cooling will have capacity to keep the oil temp below around 110 and the water with a 55 degree stat will look after itself.

And before all the Oil experts start shouting that 10-60 Synthetic oil is fine at 120 degrees + its not so much the oil where the damage will escalate from but from seals and gaskets.

What will this achieve apart from opening earlier and taking longer to get up to optimum temp? I assume this is the coolant stat you are quoting?

Once running on track at 97c the stat is already open, whether it be 55c or 88c, so the cooling at this point is the same is it not?

[shane@mbtech]

Gorilla sent me this :thumbs: not looking good for you boys

my engine done this before i got a new 1 :whistle:




Most Euro S54 engine's leave the factory with the 88 degree water thermostat, which is useless in warm weather for Track Work on a CSL.

Anybody who says that running an engine at 125 c oil temp for extended periods is ''OK'' should be forced to pick up all and any engine rebuilds.

The CSL is compromised in its cooling department.

Those that say I can do 5/6 laps or whatever on a Track at full this and full that and the temp guage is fine, are either 'crusing around or dreaming'.

The S54 oil stat opens at around 95/97 degrees, and the only thing that stops it going higher is the std oil cooler.

Fine if on a Motorway where even at speeds of 120 the engine is not under full load, revs not much more than 5/6000 and the air flow through the oil cooler and the water rad are fine.

Move onto the Track, now at 97 degrees oil temp and say
95 degrees water temp, lets do 5 good laps of say Brands or Coombe, engine will be between 60-90% full load for around 80% of the time. Engine rpm window is 6-8000 rpm Air flow through the oil Cooler as compared to a Motorway has dropped by at leat 50% even more if your a slow driver following in another cars turbelent air, and the water temp is now slowly creeping up , why, because as oil temp rises, so will water temp as the water has do effect more cooling due to rising oil temp in the block, ie engine acts as a thermal store.

10-60 Sythentic oil at prolonged periods, at over 120 c is causing damage.

For those that do Track Work, at a pure absolute minimum fit the Tropical S54 Thermostat which opens at 55 degrees, and either enlarge the std oil cooling by fitting a piggy back one like Turners sell, pricey, or fit a larger oil cooler than the standard.


Thus when the oil gets to 97 degrees even at full engine load and only 50 % air flow, the oil cooling will have capacity to keep the oil temp below around 110 and the water with a 55 degree stat will look after itself.

And before all the Oil experts start shouting that 10-60 Synthetic oil is fine at 120 degrees + its not so much the oil where the damage will escalate from but from seals and gaskets.

Mine must have stayed cool as no one was in front of me, all of them were behind me:whistle:

Or

I was driving like a pussy:whistle:

But i do know i dont drive like a pussy and my coolant guage did not budge, i know coolant temps will rise slightly but my guage did not move.
My oil temp did however get to 125c

Either way i am going to fit a piggy back oil cooler as i dont like the oil getting that hot on track,

The rise in oil temp does in turn cause the water temp to rise but it will NOT cause the coolant temp to get to near the red if the cooling system is functioning correctly. You will have an underlying coolant issue.

[Mark CSL]

Gorilla sent me this :thumbs: not looking good for you boys

my engine done this before i got a new 1 :whistle:




Most Euro S54 engine's leave the factory with the 88 degree water thermostat, which is useless in warm weather for Track Work on a CSL.

Anybody who says that running an engine at 125 c oil temp for extended periods is ''OK'' should be forced to pick up all and any engine rebuilds.

The CSL is compromised in its cooling department.

Those that say I can do 5/6 laps or whatever on a Track at full this and full that and the temp guage is fine, are either 'crusing around or dreaming'.

The S54 oil stat opens at around 95/97 degrees, and the only thing that stops it going higher is the std oil cooler.

Fine if on a Motorway where even at speeds of 120 the engine is not under full load, revs not much more than 5/6000 and the air flow through the oil cooler and the water rad are fine.

Move onto the Track, now at 97 degrees oil temp and say
95 degrees water temp, lets do 5 good laps of say Brands or Coombe, engine will be between 60-90% full load for around 80% of the time. Engine rpm window is 6-8000 rpm Air flow through the oil Cooler as compared to a Motorway has dropped by at leat 50% even more if your a slow driver following in another cars turbelent air, and the water temp is now slowly creeping up , why, because as oil temp rises, so will water temp as the water has do effect more cooling due to rising oil temp in the block, ie engine acts as a thermal store.

10-60 Sythentic oil at prolonged periods, at over 120 c is causing damage.

For those that do Track Work, at a pure absolute minimum fit the Tropical S54 Thermostat which opens at 55 degrees, and either enlarge the std oil cooling by fitting a piggy back one like Turners sell, pricey, or fit a larger oil cooler than the standard.


Thus when the oil gets to 97 degrees even at full engine load and only 50 % air flow, the oil cooling will have capacity to keep the oil temp below around 110 and the water with a 55 degree stat will look after itself.

And before all the Oil experts start shouting that 10-60 Synthetic oil is fine at 120 degrees + its not so much the oil where the damage will escalate from but from seals and gaskets.

[shane@mbtech]

So assuming it is radiator, water pump or thermostat for those of you know what prices these things are and assuming they won't be able to tell which it is, what is the most logical sequence to replace in bearing in mind cost and/or most likely failure?

My car goes into Murketts Thursday for a check up so opinions welcomed.

With the symptoms you are stating cheapest easiest try is a stat, but..

If i were looking at it i would suspect water pump starting to fail, the impeller is common for braking off and causing your symptoms.

I would check rad flow, from top to bottom, running water through this is a simple check, if flow seemed ok i would then put all pipes on and check coolant pump for flow through pipes. hopefully the bm tech should be able to tell if the flow/return is not correct.

From your symptoms i would personally be checking the water pump, tell them you think it is noisy, then they should check it:thumbs:

[benCSL]

When you run on track with 30 °, i think it's normal (behind porsche with her rear motor!!), i don't have the problem at Dijon Presnois, Spa, or Hocki when it's 10/20 °....

[Bealo]

Mine's at Murketts next monday for the biggy inspection 2.

fingers crossed your issue is a cheap one mate.

[shimmy]

So assuming it is radiator, water pump or thermostat for those of you know what prices these things are and assuming they won't be able to tell which it is, what is the most logical sequence to replace in bearing in mind cost and/or most likely failure?

My car goes into Murketts Thursday for a check up so opinions welcomed.

[thegingerninja]

Engine temp should not move regardless of how hard you drive it. The radiator is oversized and the thermostat is in place to stop the engine from running too cold. It will be either, rad, pump or stat.
Normal for the oil to hit about 125, but shouldn't really go much more than this.

[shane@mbtech]

Well, personnally, I was first suprised too (and warried), but, by having a few laps in Csl's (and M3) with hard driving with other cars close and on the track, all of them had the water and oil temperature gone up, seen the water and the oil jauge both at 2/3 in many M3 serie E46, I got to the red limit due that I was chassing benM3 + other car by sticking to there ass in straight line, the cooler was catching directly the exhaust and engine heat and does take any fresh air at all, that's why I got too the red limit,when I saw that, I dropped the throddle, moved out on the right side, shift to 6 and drove around 60/65miles and water temp came down right away back to the 2/3 and slittly lower than the 2/3 gently.

warried, I gave a rang to 2 bmw specialist around France (as Marchal sport and Delage), they told me that it was normal to see the water temp go up on track and intense driven when you used gears 2/3/4 till 8000 often and no warries to have until you stay below the red zone and below of maximum 2/3 of the oil temp, they just told me that if that happen, to assure the best, I needed to change oil and cooling liquide often

BenM3 used Motul Mo-coo before, he saw clearly the difference since, I've not tried it yet on track.

If your water temp is moving this much you have a fault, be it, radiator, head, stat or water pump, more likely the latter.

I would not believe what people tell you over the phone, one thing ive learnt from running my own garage is... No matter how trivial something may seem, get an expert to check it out physically themselves, not over the phone diagnosis.

The amount of customers who say " it was playing up about 2 weeks ago, but i thought it would be ok" are getting more commonplace, usually as we are loading their car off the recovery truck.

Ignorance is bliss, until it bites you in the arse.

As i stated earlier my temp guage does not budge, until one evening stuck on a car park (M6 motorway :banghead_ it started creeping up at standstill. I diagnosed fault using logic as viscous fan, when i checked the viscous fan was k-nackered. I replaced and all has been sweet since.

On track, driving flat out 100% throttle for a 20min session, my coolant temp guage does not move from halfway, my oil however gets to 125c. Is my car faulty? As yours is ok according to the bmw specialists you called.

Never ever mess about with overheating/getting hot as the fault may not rear its head for a good few miles after over heating has taken place.

[Bealo]

I have never seen my water temp move at all.....


Best get it checked out Shimmy, better safe than sorry.