Air Box, what's that all about?

[alexk]

Any update on this?

Sorry Alex, I forgot about it.
I will revisit it and let you know.

[sfh3l]

Alex,
Your figures are indeed interesting. My Cecil is long gone now but I still maintain a keen interest :drool:
What interests me here is the drop in air temp. Are we saying that the intake is designed not only to get the 'ram' effect, but also that once the air is in, there is some sort of pressure drop into the plenum as the car goes faster - thus lowering the charge temp? Now that really would be clever.

[Mike RT4]

True ram-air systems pressurise the plenum, which actually gives a supercharging effect. However, it is such a small amount (even the best systems only manage a few psi), that the only way to check this is by either interrogating the MAP sensor (if it has one) live on the road (no rolling road outside of F1 could replicate the ram air effect) or by fitting an accurate pressure sensor in the plenum that has peak memory recall (something like a digital SPA gauge). Just measuring the air flow and intake temperature won't reveal if there is any "ram air" actually taking place and unless there is some form of heat exchange process going on inside the plenum, you'll never achieve better than ambient either any way :blalalala:.

[alexk]

Do you by now know what the CSL has (MAF or MAP) ?

:blalalala:

[Mike RT4]

Do you by now know what the CSL has (MAF or MAP) ?

:blalalala:

I was speaking in general about checking out the effects of ram air on any vehicle that claims to operate such a system :blalalala:. I know the CSL runs a MAP sensor, that was clearly listed in the info you provided early in the week :thumbs:. Some systems (like the Ford EECIV) on the 1994 onwards Escort Cosworth run a system that uses both a MAF and a MAP sensor and some systems just use throttle positional based mapping.

[Trawler]

Very interesting & goes to show that rolling roads are a waste of time.

Looks like there is an error below regarding atmos temp & intake temp.

Hi Gorilla,

Interesting information as always :thumbs:
Scheel is relatively close to me, I might go to the meet them at some point.

So back to the subject of the intake.
Some information I gathered in autumn of 2010, when doing a drive to Stuttgart in Germany.

The atmospheric temperature was 10 degrees.
I don't remember what is the metric for the mass of air (possibly litres per second, but I can be wrong).
Sport is on and the flap was open in all cases.

Speed | Intake temperature (C) | Mass
--------------------------------------------
60km/h 23 C n/a
150km/h 14 C 27
260km/h 6 C 44

The massive difference of the intake temperature is clear, as well as the mass (150 and 260 were with same rpm as I recall with 4th and 6th gear).

I could repeat the tests soon (I am pending a trip to Munich and Salzburg :whistle and get more sophisticated measurements with my updated telemetry.
I will update you in 2-3 weeks time with new values.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''True ram-air systems pressurise the plenum, which actually gives a supercharging effect. However, it is such a small amount (even the best systems only manage a few psi)


But that few PSi gain is important if altering the
Intake runner length when trying to
alter where a bit more Torque is required.

If you extended the runner and the air velocity
drops a few PSi then it would be a waste of
time.
The Race S54's would never be able to make
the sort of power numbers with a std CSL
Air Box Intake.

Its also part of how some Race Series Restrict
engine power, Air Restrictors [Max size diam] on the Intake.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike RT4]

Because I don't do guess work, I can only advocate actually measuring things scientifically to actually physically quantify the effect of any changes. A very wise man told me to always "test, not guess". I have stuck with that and found it yields the best results .

[alexk]

Because I don't do guess work, I can only advocate actually measuring things scientifically to actually physically quantify the effect of any changes. A very wise man told me to always "test, not guess". I have stuck with that and found it yields the best results .

Is that how the 400bhp plan came up ? Testing ? :blalalala:

[Mike RT4]

Is that how the 400bhp plan came up ? Testing ? :blalalala:

Alex,
Mock all you like, but when I do something I do it properly . IF I built one, it would be done with Arrow rods, Arrow crank and CP pistons and mapped properly on an engine dyno until it was perfect.

[AlexGTT]

Mike, I think Alex was being light hearted. However, I will say with my Moderators hat on that maybe we should keep technical threads like this exactly that - technical. We can leave the personal stuff out.

I for one am very interested to see these points aired and all ideas welcome. Just because (mostly) others have not seen results expected doesn't mean Mike won't succeed.

Please continue without the personal stuff. Light hearted or not, it's not necessary.

Moderator mode off.:wink: Please continue. Peace and love.:smt055

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''I for one am very interested to see these points aired and all ideas welcome. Just because (mostly) others have not seen results expected doesn't mean Mike won't succeed.''


Not sure I understand this ?


Mike posted this-

Quote-''Mock all you like, but when I do something I do it properly . IF I built one, it would be done with Arrow rods, Arrow crank and CP pistons and mapped properly on an engine dyno until it was perfect.''


But in other thread Mike had posted this-

Quote- ''The more I'm reading, the more I'm being inclined to leave the engine well alone other than for basic optimisation mods.''


Please somebody inform this confused
Primate as to what exactly Mike is going to succeed at ?

Doing what has already been done before ?

I was reading all the excitment and ''Hype'' of seeing this
alleged Hyper Super quick S54 making Power numbers that
would leave BMW green with envy and Torque to die for,
with all the special super parts it was going be
the ''daddy of all CSL B30 S54 engines and then
total numbness at being left for now, with a ''Vorsteiney''
front end and some Pre Preg Carbon ?

Christ what part did I miss ?

Not so sure who is ''Mocking'' who here.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike RT4]

Mike, I think Alex was being light hearted. However, I will say with my Moderators hat on that maybe we should keep technical threads like this exactly that - technical. We can leave the personal stuff out.

I for one am very interested to see these points aired and all ideas welcome. Just because (mostly) others have not seen results expected doesn't mean Mike won't succeed.

Please continue without the personal stuff. Light hearted or not, it's not necessary.

Moderator mode off.:wink: Please continue. Peace and love.:smt055

I know I shouldn't bite, but it annoys me when people make assumptions :gayfight:. The engine in my Escort has been COMPLETELY re-engineered. There is nothing standard left on it bar the head casing (which has been heavily re-worked). Obviously this is required when increasing the power by 245% over standard .







IF I did a CSL engine, I'd apply the same engineering principals - it wouldn't be a case of bolting things to the outside and crossing my fingers :blalalala:. I'd strip an engine and see where the weaknesses were and replace those parts....

[Mike RT4]

Hi,

Quote- ''I for one am very interested to see these points aired and all ideas welcome. Just because (mostly) others have not seen results expected doesn't mean Mike won't succeed.''


Not sure I understand this ?


Mike posted this-

Quote-''Mock all you like, but when I do something I do it properly . IF I built one, it would be done with Arrow rods, Arrow crank and CP pistons and mapped properly on an engine dyno until it was perfect.''


But in other thread Mike had posted this-

Quote- ''The more I'm reading, the more I'm being inclined to leave the engine well alone other than for basic optimisation mods.''


Please somebody inform this confused
Primate as to what exactly Mike is going to succeed at ?

Doing what has already been done before ?

I was reading all the excitment and ''Hype'' of seeing this
alleged Hyper Super quick S54 making Power numbers that
would leave BMW green with envy and Torque to die for,
with all the special super parts it was going be
the ''daddy of all CSL B30 S54 engines and then
total numbness at being left for now, with a ''Vorsteiney''
front end and some Pre Preg Carbon ?

Christ what part did I miss ?

Not so sure who is ''Mocking'' who here.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

It would be very easy to achieve a reliable 420bhp, but looking at the costs involved to do it reliably is another matter. I've costed it out that to build a proper engine to make good power and torque that would give factory reliability would be the best part of £20k (this on top of having an existing engine to do this to). I don't know about you, but that doesn't figure on my bang for buck ratio to gain such a small power increase.....

Hence, at this stage, I'll leave well alone, apart from the optimisation of everything to ensure it is all working as well as it should / could. I do hope that clarifies to your satisfaction ?

[shane@mbtech]

It would be very easy to achieve a reliable 420bhp, but looking at the costs involved to do it reliably is another matter. I've costed it out that to build a proper engine to make good power and torque that would give factory reliability would be the best part of £20k (this on top of having an existing engine to do this to). I don't know about you, but that doesn't figure on my bang for buck ratio to gain such a small power increase.....

Hence, at this stage, I'll ;eave well alone, apart from the optimisation of everything to ensure it is all working as well as it should / could. I do hope that clarifies to you satisfaction .

I agree, but my next port of call on my car was to do the headgasket, purely from a maintenance point. Whilst head was off I was going to get the head flow tested, to see if it was possible to "optimise" it rather than big gains.

Alas this did not happen, but we have a Cylinder head here, might see if there is any room for improvement, as it would be rude not to.

It did frustrate me on trackdays, to blitz cars through the corners, only for them to pull 20 car lengths on a big straight. I was sat there thinking at the time, "imagine how much quicker my car would be if it was as quick as that GTR on the straight". But that in the end was all part of the fun.:beer: