Air Box, what's that all about?

[digi]

you could always buy this. Cheaper than getting a CSL.

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---s54-csl-killer-engine-p2237.aspx

Plus you could project the shell and chassis how you like. With the CSL it would be a big waste IMO.

For me atleast, the car out of the box is pretty much what I need on street, so no need to mod (keep the wife nagging :-D).

If you mod a regular E46 ///M3 it would be quite a satisfying project, but with the CSL you would be spoiling it because BMW Motorsport pretty much included the key engineering bits to make it go fast! (composite materials where it mattered, DTM style induction system etc) Obviously the brakes were a shambles, but you cant win them all. :-D But in all fairness, they are ok. My R35 with the big calipers and street pads are probably not much better. (found that out the other night dragging a Ferrari) :finga:

[Mike RT4]

I don't need two dedicated track cars .

I agree that the CSL is just about perfect out of the box and is the reason why I have hankered after one for so long. However, IMO there are not many cars on the planet that couldn't be improved in some way. With the CSL, perhaps it is just the brakes. We'll just have to wait and see . I've got to get one first LOL.

[AlexGTT]

Hi,

Quote- ''I for one am very interested to see these points aired and all ideas welcome. Just because (mostly) others have not seen results expected doesn't mean Mike won't succeed.''


Not sure I understand this ?


Mike posted this-

Quote-''Mock all you like, but when I do something I do it properly . IF I built one, it would be done with Arrow rods, Arrow crank and CP pistons and mapped properly on an engine dyno until it was perfect.''


But in other thread Mike had posted this-

Quote- ''The more I'm reading, the more I'm being inclined to leave the engine well alone other than for basic optimisation mods.''


Please somebody inform this confused
Primate as to what exactly Mike is going to succeed at ?

Gorilla, just trying to keep harmony on our friendly site. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find the technical discussion very interesting. I strongly believe he should leave well alone but that's up to Mike.

[alexk]

Mike, this thread is about the airbox of the CSL.

Please don't get me wrong, but why everywhere you keep popping pics and tech stuff about your Cosworth ?
I don't see any relevance of the Cosworth engine to the CSL engine.
You see, there is no relevance of the ... S38B38 engine to the S54B32HP engine that the CSL has.
So what suits other cars doesn't necessarily suit the CSL engine.

The problem is the very high average piston speed.
If you rev it higher as it is, something will get broken very soon.
Usual S54 race engine practice (Gorilla mentioned it with the B30 S54) is to reduce the stroke(thus 3.0lt instead of 3.2lt) and rev it higher.
Of course every engine component has to be replaced with appropriate ones, which will have to be balanced etc.
This exercise is very expensive and not very reliable.
Racing pistons, conrods, cranks etc have the life expectancy of racing components.

If you are planning to indeed improve your engine and have 400bhp that cost very little, please do it and then post the information.
This debate and speculation for something no one has achieved is a bit strange.

I am also planning to prove that delimited CSLs are 370+bhp instead of 360bhp, but until I have the proof/data in my hands I prefer not to speculate about it everyday.

[shane@mbtech]

Can you tell me your thought on the last part alex?

Mike, this thread is about the airbox of the CSL.

Please don't get me wrong, but why everywhere you keep popping pics and tech stuff about your Cosworth ?
I don't see any relevance of the Cosworth engine to the CSL engine.
You see, there is no relevance of the ... S38B38 engine to the S54B32HP engine that the CSL has.
So what suits other cars doesn't necessarily suit the CSL engine.

The problem is the very high average piston speed.
If you rev it higher as it is, something will get broken very soon.
Usual S54 race engine practice (Gorilla mentioned it with the B30 S54) is to reduce the stroke(thus 3.0lt instead of 3.2lt) and rev it higher.
Of course every engine component has to be replaced with appropriate ones, which will have to be balanced etc.
This exercise is very expensive and not very reliable.
Racing pistons, conrods, cranks etc have the life expectancy of racing components.

If you are planning to indeed improve your engine and have 400bhp that cost very little, please do it and then post the information.
This debate and speculation for something no one has achieved is a bit strange.

I am also planning to prove that delimited CSLs are 370+bhp instead of 360bhp, but until I have the proof/data in my hands I prefer not to speculate about it everyday.

[shimmy]

Can you tell me your thought on the last part alex?

:119:

[_Nathan_]

I assume he's gonna buy an engine dyno and work out how to fudge the figures

[CraigMillwardCroft]

I assume he's gonna buy an engine dyno and work out how to fudge the figures

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[Mike RT4]

Mike, this thread is about the airbox of the CSL.

Please don't get me wrong, but why everywhere you keep popping pics and tech stuff about your Cosworth ?
I don't see any relevance of the Cosworth engine to the CSL engine.
You see, there is no relevance of the ... S38B38 engine to the S54B32HP engine that the CSL has.
So what suits other cars doesn't necessarily suit the CSL engine.

The problem is the very high average piston speed.
If you rev it higher as it is, something will get broken very soon.
Usual S54 race engine practice (Gorilla mentioned it with the B30 S54) is to reduce the stroke(thus 3.0lt instead of 3.2lt) and rev it higher.
Of course every engine component has to be replaced with appropriate ones, which will have to be balanced etc.
This exercise is very expensive and not very reliable.
Racing pistons, conrods, cranks etc have the life expectancy of racing components.

If you are planning to indeed improve your engine and have 400bhp that cost very little, please do it and then post the information.
This debate and speculation for something no one has achieved is a bit strange.

I am also planning to prove that delimited CSLs are 370+bhp instead of 360bhp, but until I have the proof/data in my hands I prefer not to speculate about it everyday.

Hi Alex,
The reason for posting these pictures is that at every turn you seem to be debunking everything I am saying, so I am providing evidence of previous projects, which is just to give you with some insight into the fact that I do know what to do to build an engine capable of doing what is required. You don't get a power increase of 254% by using standard internals, and if you're intending to push the S54 beyond 400bhp, only an idiot would do so using the standard parts.

I know exactly what is involved in building an engine capable of sustained high piston speeds - my own engine which has been stroked from 1997cc to 2225cc had to have the entire engine upgraded and completely reworked. This was done by machining the cylinder wall away to accept nikasil steel wet liners. The engine was then fitted with an even higher quality stroker crank. However, this reduces the rod angle ratio, which puts stress on the bore. The solution was 8mm longer (and stronger H-section) rods (which brought the rod angle back to standard). The problem with this was then the standard pistons would have protruded out the top of the block. The solution was to have some custom forged (stronger) pistons made with the pin moved higher up in the pistons.

All you have to do go through each specific part of the engine, assess the weakness and formulate a cure. The S54 is just an engine, BUT by all accounts it's on the limit of the standard internals, so the cure would be to bin them off and replace them with ones that were able to take the increased stresses. You seem to be under the misapprehension that race parts will reduce the life of the engine, where if specced properly and you're not silly with the increase, you'll get the same longevity as the OE parts due to their extra strength....

The thing is, with a forced induction engine (providing the internals are up to it), you can just bolt ever bigger turbos on to increase the power, so the reward to cost ratio of doing so is worth doing for the potential 254-350% increase in power (turbo dependent). The S54 lump (with very similar costs to modify, just the blower is basically the only thing you wouldn't be buying) would net you just a 20% increase in power.

Now at these stage, I'm not prepared to spunk £20k on an engine, just to prove a point , and I don't want to turbo or supercharge it, as that will detract from what the CSL is all about IMO. If you think you can get 400+bhp out of an S54 engine cheaply AND reliably, then you are sorely mistaken..... If you do it on the former, then you won't get the latter .

I forgot to say, I have access to an engine dyno and one of the best mappers in the country .

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''Gorilla, just trying to keep harmony on our friendly site. Nothing more, nothing less.''

Alex, I could not agree more, but a bit more
S54 and a little less ''Focus'' would be nice
on a CSL forum.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

Hi Alex,
The reason for posting these pictures is that at every turn you seem to be debunking everything I am saying

If you think you can get 400+bhp out of an S54 engine cheaply AND reliably, then you are sorely mistaken..... If you do it on the former, then you won't get the latter .

Mike,

Please allow me to remind you that your very first posts in this forum (~3 weeks ago) were saying that with cams, compression, head work, exhaust and map the CSL would make 400+bhp.
At that time, you haven't done any research about the engine.
A few people, including myself said it's impossible to achieve this without serious components that cost a lot of money.
Therefore yes I was insisting that it's impossible what you were saying.

Here we are 3 weeks later and you are saying like a true expert that it's impossible to do it without expensive components.

What is there to say now ? That BMW MS didn't have the expertise or skills ?
Because their components have a very small life expectancy with 415bhp on the race cousin of the S54, the P54B32.

Last but not least, can we stay on the subject which is about a BMW engine ?
Otherwise I will start posting pics and info of Superbike engines :119:

[LeinsCSL]

I'm getting very confused trying to keep up with this thread. Think I, for one, will just have to leave my car alone now :whistle:

Hi,

Quote- ''Gorilla, just trying to keep harmony on our friendly site. Nothing more, nothing less.''

Alex, I could not agree more, but a bit more
S54 and a little less ''Focus'' would be nice
on a CSL forum.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Anything E30-related is always welcome too Mr. Gorilla, or maybe that's just me :beer: Don't want baby and bathwater syndrome

[shane@mbtech]

I like this forum because its light hearted and very rarely any handbags, so can we please stop waving our willys, put them back in the y fronts. And keep this forum a pleasant one. Not letting it descend into an argumentative place like all other forums seem to be.

:beer:

[_Nathan_]

I like this forum because its light hearted and very rarely any handbags, so can we please stop waving our willys, put them back in the y fronts. And keep this forum a pleasant one. Not letting it descend into an argumentative place like all other forums seem to be.

:beer:

F*ck off :smt055

[CraigMillwardCroft]

F*ck off :smt055

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha: