Air Box, what's that all about?

[Mike RT4]

Mike,

Please allow me to remind you that your very first posts in this forum (~3 weeks ago) were saying that with cams, compression, head work, exhaust and map the CSL would make 400+bhp.
At that time, you haven't done any research about the engine.
A few people, including myself said it's impossible to achieve this without serious components that cost a lot of money.
Therefore yes I was insisting that it's impossible what you were saying.

Here we are 3 weeks later and you are saying like a true expert that it's impossible to do it without expensive components.

What is there to say now ? That BMW MS didn't have the expertise or skills ?
Because their components have a very small life expectancy with 415bhp on the race cousin of the S54, the P54B32.

Last but not least, can we stay on the subject which is about a BMW engine ?
Otherwise I will start posting pics and info of Superbike engines :119:

Alex,
Actually, if you look back I was actually trying to ascertain if people had actually achieved the claimed figures with the bolt on mods .

When Shimmy commented that there was a reason why a user who claimed to have 384bhp couldn't notice the difference compared to a standard one, I didn't beat about the bush, and suggested that a lot of the figures are pure BS. Unfortunately Shimmy would not confirm or deny this fact . IF the figure of 384bhp isn't pure BS, then it is not unreasonable to assume that an extra 16bhp could be found with head work, port matching and careful optimisation on the dyno (where you can experiment with the effects of swinging the cams to see what gives what improvements). However, if it is BS, then as previously accepted by me, the 400bhp for a standard spec CSL engine is pie in the sky .

The guy who maps my engines has already achieved 400bhp on an E46 race engine, BUT he has said that it lost a big portion of it's bottom end and wasn't suitable for a road car. However, the customer built the engine, so who knows what parts were in it.

There are many reasons why manufacturers have their hands tied regarding achieving figures (air restrictors / restrictions on modifications allowed). Ford only achieved 540bhp out of the Cosworth engine due to these reasons, yet aftermarket tuning companies have far exceeded this. So as to the reason for posting images of my own engine, I was using it as an examples of what not being constrained by rules and regulations can give, I don't deal in BS artyman:.

In the same way, if I was to build an S54 engine, I would not have my hands tied like BMW have and I've already been daydreaming about an ultimate spec engine, but until I come up with the £20k to build it, it will remain pure fantasy .

Rest assured if things do change, then I will be posting my findings here. I suspect that the first real eye-opener would be the true engine dyno figure that a standard CSL engine makes - I'd lay money it was quite a bit below the 355bhp claimed .

At the end of the day, I just want to have fun :finga:.

[LeinsCSL]

I am also planning to prove that delimited CSLs are 370+bhp instead of 360bhp, but until I have the proof/data in my hands I prefer not to speculate about it everyday.

I too am really interested in this Alex, as mine was delimited from the factory. Nice work if you can find that out :thumbs:

[_Nathan_]

Mine was also delimited from the factory, it made 349 on Simpsons dyno dynamics dyno and never felt slow in a straight line compared to others, remapped or not.

I'll ask Simpsons if they ever had a standard CSL engine on the engine dyno, I know they had a de-vanos'd one but still on standard DME.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Funny how the old 'search' facility never gets
a look in.

It been mentioned here several times that,

Std CSL Engine numbers are Optimistic, but
like all std Engines you get a few that exceed
but many that do not come up to the number.

Head- you will never gain 18 BHP out of a S54
head no matter what you do to it.
You will be extremly lucky if you see
anywhere near a double digit HP gain,
on head alone, no matter who is doing the
porting polishing and flow testing etc.

Cams, no real gains unless you up the
Std C/R and replace all the top end
valve train etc, gives the impression of
making a much more peaky engine, but
a large part of that is down to the engine
Rev Band being moved higher up and if
anything being made narrower.

Crank, about as good as it gets for a
out the box Crank, for sure all the
'Tuning Experts'' will tell you to knife
edge the Crank, but the L6 engine suffers
from substantial internal harmonics and
resonatates badly once the balance of the
engine is altered, hence why the Stroked
S54 Arrow Cranks that Vac sell are only
really good to around 7900/ 8000 rpm.
Several cases of stroked S54 revved to
8400 rpm that are no longer rotating.

Rods- the 'ice' cracked rods are very good
for 8300/8400 rpm, so changing them for
Forged Steel only gains a lighter wallet
and in most cases a 'Heavier' Rod than
the std ones.
Not much point paying 1k plus for a
nice set of Forged Steel rods that increase the
reciprocating mass, or 4k plus for a Ti
set that sounds great on the spec sheet.

Pistons, again very good, and not much
to be gained unless altering the CR of
the engine up to 12 or 12.5 CR which
brings with it, its own set of issues.

Block, std block at 4.5mm between bores is
about as low as you want to go for
reliability and longtevity as the heat soak
between bores, given the fast piston
speed, even with the Piston Oil squirters, can
cause the the block to distort.
Some go another 0.25 or even 0.5mm on
the overbore, but its reliability really
does start to suffer.
Its in part why the stroked S54 came about
as not much meat, to go sideways.

I think most of this infomation compilied
by many Members over the years
is availble by using the ''search'' facility.

S54 is what it is, a very good engine out the
box, but over the years the 'Tuning Bragging''
rights have pushed the alleged performance
numbers higher and higher, where you now
have some claiming to have more powerful
S54' s than the MS P54 M3 engine, which is
a complete different animal to what you
get in your S54, CSL included.

20k would not buy the head alone.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike RT4]

I did suggest that the additional 16bhp would require head work AND a compression hike not just one or the other . I wouldn't want to go above 12:1 on a road engine.

Given the block thickness, I was thinking Nikasil steel liners and a spacer plate to raise the deck height to allow longer rods (as per the Skyline stroker kits ). This would at the very least retain the standard rod angle ratio (as the pistons already look like they're on the limit of pin height) as well as giving a capacity increase, which would then mean it wouldn't need to rev beyond 8k and you'd make gains everywhere .

I recon you could do a nice reliable 420-430bhp engine for £20k that way (that had the same rev limit as the OE item).

The standard length Arrow rods are actually 64g lighter than the stock items .

The £20k quoted is PLUS having the original engine, and you'd naturally have everything dynamically balanced to check the harmonics were okay (along with a damper if it was deemed necessary). I have a company that does this work for me .

The only issue that is that it would probably mean junking the stock ECU and running an aftermarket one, which then leads to non-genuine clocks etc. I was hoping that with my contacts, I could bring someone over from Germany to live map the standard ECU, but I haven't got that in depth yet :blalalala:.

Give me a chance, I haven't even got a car yet .

[NZ_M3]

The ALMS PTG P54 in one spec claims to have 450hp ... Not sure how many running hours before a rebuild however - and they had a budget of millions. That motor is for sale if you ever wanted to find out how they did it.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I should have added that once you start
using the Higher lift cams then the
Vanos is no longer able to work correctly
so you will have to delete the Vanos,
unless you fit the MS Vanos at approx
circa 10k, and its a time /hour rated part.

Its always a good indicator that if a N/A S54
still has std Vanos fitted then its almost
impossible for a 4 0r 9 to figure in the
alleged BHP number.

You can run the MS S54 CSL DME with the
Vanos Deleted.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[_Nathan_]

KMS in holland would disagree with that, they do a nice big valve head engine with an alledged 4 in the number which still runs vanos.

[shimmy]

KMS in holland would disagree with that, they do a nice big valve head engine with an alledged 4 in the number which still runs vanos.

394? :smokin:

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

I should have added that once you start
using the Higher lift cams then the
Vanos is no longer able to work correctly
so you will have to delete the Vanos,
unless you fit the MS Vanos at approx
circa 10k, and its a time /hour rated part.

Its always a good indicator that if a N/A S54
still has std Vanos fitted then its almost
impossible for a 4 0r 9 to figure in the
alleged BHP number.

You can run the MS S54 CSL DME with the
Vanos Deleted.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Taking the wild-ish shrick cams 288 280 with 14mm lift, and re-profiling the cam, can give good results, so I am led to believe. Giving decent valve overlap. Granted not ideal for below 4500 rpm, but who buys a csl to potter about.

[Bounce]

Hi,

I should have added that once you start
using the Higher lift cams then the
Vanos is no longer able to work correctly
so you will have to delete the Vanos,
unless you fit the MS Vanos at approx
circa 10k, and its a time /hour rated part.

Its always a good indicator that if a N/A S54
still has std Vanos fitted then its almost
impossible for a 4 0r 9 to figure in the
alleged BHP number.

You can run the MS S54 CSL DME with the
Vanos Deleted.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

I was thinking the same.:-D

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote-'KMS in holland would disagree with that, they do a nice big valve head engine with an alledged 4 in the number which still runs vanos.

Nathan-Do you mean KMS VanKronenburg,
or KMS Race Engines [sic] ?

Vankroneburg does not run Vanos and there
new DME is still in development which
will do Variable Cam.

KMS Race Engines use Pectel SQ6. so
variable Cam not a problem but even
with the std Vanos fully Optmised [std CSL is not] can not
see how it would/can function correctly
with High lift cams.

Lawsy- SMG Gearbox and engine unwilling
to pull/rev much below 4500 rpm, not sure
how well that would work in a CSL ?
Bet you would have more than clutch
slur in a very short time!
Fine with a proper sequential or Manual
out on Track but would not be
for me with SMG II ala CSL.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Quote-'KMS in holland would disagree with that, they do a nice big valve head engine with an alledged 4 in the number which still runs vanos.

Nathan-Do you mean KMS VanKronenburg,
or KMS Race Engines [sic] ?

Vankroneburg does not run Vanos and there
new DME is still in development which
will do Variable Cam.

KMS Race Engines use Pectel SQ6. so
variable Cam not a problem but even
with the std Vanos fully Optmised [std CSL is not] can not
see how it would/can function correctly
with High lift cams.

Lawsy- SMG Gearbox and engine unwilling
to pull/rev much below 4500 rpm, not sure
how well that would work in a CSL ?
Bet you would have more than clutch
slur in a very short time!
Fine with a proper sequential or Manual
out on Track but would not be
for me with SMG II ala CSL.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Probably correct, but I was just talking engine G man.

PS where is this pump going to, I keep tripping over it in the workshop.

[_Nathan_]

KMS race engines, got one on MoTeC M600.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Lawsy- I missunderstood as you said,
''Granted not ideal for below 4500 rpm, but who buys a csl to potter about.

But taking it a bit further the S54 Vanos spread
ie] variable, at 5000 rpm to say 8200 is very, very small
so if you spend say a lot of the time on Track
at 5000 rpm and above, which ''this'' engine
requires, and which most do,
[different point same subject]
the Vanos does nothing for you except be
extra weight, and somerthing else to go
wrong.

I think people also forget that the Vanos takes
its drive from the Oil Pressure so your also
reducing potential top end oiling issues.
ie] one less outlet.

Will PM address for part as Guy still
not back. Thanks.

Nathan- Kempower also offer Higher Lift Cams
with std S54 Vanos, I can put you in touch with
a couple of Guys who went down that route and
are rebuilding there motors due to Vanos.
Do not know the full S/P but in both cases related to
coming off the throttle at full lift and then
back on again very quickly, at full
oil temp.

Regards,

The Gorilla.