Suspension: What to do?

[m3f_twentyseven]

Billies are a killer value because they actually behave like a high-end race damper. That being said, they are relatively harsh on the street in E36 M3 application. They are tolerable for many because they are always paired with progressive stock style springs and thus function more like a dual-duty setup. Pair them with linear race style springs and then you are essentially running a Group N setup!

The job of a damper is to control motion; higher quality ones do a better job than most of the lower/mid tier ones described here. You can run much higher spring rates precisely because those better dampers can do a better job managing motion. Conversely, even with lower spring rates, they do a much better job than their cheaper counterparts.


I do agree that putting expensive stuff on an inexpensive car may be crazy as to the other post. There was no mention of budget anywhere though...

No offense but given what you wrote, you have much more to learn with how these high end dampers are designed to operate. The concept you describe sounds great, which is why everyone who never buys these setups reposts it.


*HOWEVER*


Expensive does not make it 'better'. They are niche products that were never intended for street usage (only adapted) because the number of customers willing to spend $4000+ on a car that isn't going to see the track is comically small. There is no magic formula for dampers - like camshafts, there will ALWAYS be a compromise. MCS is very high quality however they are not the right product for everyone. It isn't a matter of being crazy either; it is a matter of experience and I also fell victim to the hype and took a huge financial plunge.... only to end up right back on a Koni setup.


You really don't even want to know how much SG, Eric and myself have collectively spent on suspensions for these cars.

[m3f_usedunderwear]

So Koni's seem to be the more tolerant of the setup, as far as springs go, I really want the car to not have any issues of scraping ect. and I do not want to be riding around on the bump stops. Between the h&r sports, the eibachs, and the dinan's, is there that much of a difference? The H&R koni kit is dirt cheap right now, about 200$ more for the eibachs, and 100$ more for the dinans...

If you care about the ride height / finger gap of the drop, the H&R Sport springs seem to drop lower in the rear and doesn't seem even with the fronts (the front has a bit of a gap when comparing to the rear)



The Eibach springs drops the car more evenly both front and rear. Not sure about the Dinans though.

[m3f_Cha5en]

K, go with the Koni's and HR springs.

[m3f_marcva]

I've had both options on e36s. H&R will run firmer, but also push more in my experience. The dinan setup feels like stock balance in comfortably firmer. Better if you live with less than perfect roads, and firm enough for occasional track use. I'm a cca instructor, btw.


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[m3f_Cha5en]

Koni's are so cheap right now with the sale too....

Do the Koni's already!



Billy's are nice, but theyre not as comfy as the Koni's.



If it helps, I have a set of Billy's in my garage, and I still wont put them on.

[m3f_tripitz]

Billies are a killer value because they actually behave like a high-end race damper. That being said, they are relatively harsh on the street in E36 M3 application. They are tolerable for many because they are always paired with progressive stock style springs and thus function more like a dual-duty setup. Pair them with linear race style springs and then you are essentially running a Group N setup!







No offense but given what you wrote, you have much more to learn with how these high end dampers are designed to operate. The concept you describe sounds great, which is why everyone who never buys these setups reposts it.



*HOWEVER*



Expensive does not make it 'better'. They are niche products that were never intended for street usage (only adapted) because the number of customers willing to spend $4000+ on a car that isn't going to see the track is comically small. There is no magic formula for dampers - like camshafts, there will ALWAYS be a compromise. MCS is very high quality however they are not the right product for everyone. It isn't a matter of being crazy either; it is a matter of experience and I also fell victim to the hype and took a huge financial plunge.... only to end up right back on a Koni setup.



You really don't even want to know how much SG, Eric and myself have collectively spent on suspensions for these cars.

I have seen numerous posts about how well the MCS system behaves for non-track use. So strange to see such unanimous opinion against that application here. I only noticed those posts as I was researching a suspension setup for my track car. You can find just as many people with MCS setups for street use as for track use on the forums!



For my own car I am in process of installing a 2-way MCS setup; my application, however is for track only use and I will be running higher spring rates.

[m3f_Bimmerman325i]

I have seen numerous posts about how well the MCS system behaves for non-track use. So strange to see such unanimous opinion against that application here. I only noticed those posts as I was researching a suspension setup for my track car. You can find just as many people with MCS setups for street use as for track use on the forums!



For my own car I am in process of installing a 2-way MCS setup; my application, however is for track only use and I will be running higher spring rates.

I'd be curious how many of those people are as enthralled with their MCSs on street use after a year or so. I love mine, on the track. I once thought mine were great on the street, but they are really only tolerable. Thankfully the car isn't my DD, but it's annoying even so.



There is a lot you put up with, once you install a fancy setup. I know I was excusing things like low-speed bobble, harshness, and occasional bounciness because I had just spent $tooMany on the suspension. I figured those characteristics were only slightly worse than a stock suspension, because everyone had always told me that ultra premium race stuff was basically stock-like on the road! It wasn't until I bought my stock M3 that I realized A) that's a load of crap, B) I'd been putting up with a lot of actually really annoying things, and C) race parts belong on race cars.



My TCK DAs were an order of magnitude nicer on the street than my MCSs are--with the notable exception of bump control. The MCSs are fantastic at that. They (and my ASTs) do, unfortunately, have what I am calling 'bobble' which I've never experienced (to the same degree) in stock or Koni-based (twin-tube) shocks. I'd be curious if JRZ RS (twin-tubes) kits do.



The bobble, for those not familiar, is the car basically pogo-ing/bobbling/bouncing in the <35-40mph range on smooth roads. It sucks. It really sucks. Different shocks do it to different degrees, but I've yet to find a high end (monotube) damper that doesn't do it. This can feel like a vibration all the way to physical motion of the car that never really settles, with the whole car just feeling anxious/nervous/jittery. Spring rate plays a role, as does adjusting the shock rebound/compression to dial them in to reduce it, but I haven't been able to eliminate it. The phenomenon is the result of the dampers barely moving over small road imperfections as a result of the combined stiffness (damping + spring + bar + tire) at the wheel. The chassis moves rather than the shocks, and the shocks barely do any damping since there's no movement, and it sucks. Progressively sprung cars also don't have this issue as much, because the tiny road imperfections cause damper motion corresponding to very soft spring rate, so more movement occurs. Linear rates are, well, linear, so they don't have that regime where the road imperfections can be soaked up easily. Monotube dampers with progressive springs could be a nice match, but not one I have personally spent enough time with off of a track.



(Why this sucks doesn't take much critical thought-- city driving is almost entirely <40mph, so....that sucks. Sure, you can go faster, but "I'm sorry officer, I have to drive fast otherwise my $8k suspension is uncomfortable!" isn't a valid excuse.)

[m3f_EricSMG]

I'd be curious how many of those people are as enthralled with their MCSs on street use after a year or so. I love mine, on the track. I once thought mine were great on the street, but they are really only tolerable. Thankfully the car isn't my DD, but it's annoying even so.



There is a lot you put up with, once you install a fancy setup. I know I was excusing things like low-speed bobble, harshness, and occasional bounciness because I had just spent $tooMany on the suspension. I figured those characteristics were only slightly worse than a stock suspension, because everyone had always told me that ultra premium race stuff was basically stock-like on the road! It wasn't until I bought my stock M3 that I realized A) that's a load of crap, B) I'd been putting up with a lot of actually really annoying things, and C) race parts belong on race cars.



My TCK DAs were an order of magnitude nicer on the street than my MCSs are--with the notable exception of bump control. The MCSs are fantastic at that. They (and my ASTs) do, unfortunately, have what I am calling 'bobble' which I've never experienced (to the same degree) in stock or Koni-based (twin-tube) shocks. I'd be curious if JRZ RS (twin-tubes) kits do.



The bobble, for those not familiar, is the car basically pogo-ing/bobbling/bouncing in the <35-40mph range on smooth roads. It sucks. It really sucks. Different shocks do it to different degrees, but I've yet to find a high end (monotube) damper that doesn't do it. This can feel like a vibration all the way to physical motion of the car that never really settles, with the whole car just feeling anxious/nervous/jittery. Spring rate plays a role, as does adjusting the shock rebound/compression to dial them in to reduce it, but I haven't been able to eliminate it. The phenomenon is the result of the dampers barely moving over small road imperfections as a result of the combined stiffness (damping + spring + bar + tire) at the wheel. The chassis moves rather than the shocks, and the shocks barely do any damping since there's no movement, and it sucks. Progressively sprung cars also don't have this issue as much, because the tiny road imperfections cause damper motion corresponding to very soft spring rate, so more movement occurs. Linear rates are, well, linear, so they don't have that regime where the road imperfections can be soaked up easily. Monotube dampers with progressive springs could be a nice match, but not one I have personally spent enough time with off of a track.



(Why this sucks doesn't take much critical thought-- city driving is almost entirely <40mph, so....that sucks. Sure, you can go faster, but "I'm sorry officer, I have to drive fast otherwise my $8k suspension is uncomfortable!" isn't a valid excuse.)

Really, really great reply here. You've described exactly what happens with high performance dampers.



Mechanically speaking, these dampers have too much low (shock) speed valving (resistance) so it takes a LOT of force to get the damper moving. This force is transferred to the chassis. Stiff springs only exacerbate this - even move force required for the suspension to "absorb" the road.



This, in fact, illustrates another misconception - that a "bouncy" car means that the dampers are blown (too soft). Quite the contrary - a bouncy car (one that bobbles) is a car with overly stiff dampers.



Case study one for you guys: The Billy HD dampers for the 46M have HUGE amounts of low speed rebound force. The result with stock springs? A bit of "bobble" at city speeds.



Fat Cat not only relaxed this force, but he adds generous "bleed" holes to the pistons which essentially allow a certain amount of oil to pass through without engaging the discs (valving). The result is quite remarkable - the shock becomes MUCH less force to 'get moving' and so the little surface ridges and ripples are dramatically smoothed.



Case study two: I bought the Ohlins RT coil overs for my 46M after reading lots of great reviews even though my gut was certain I wouldn't like them. While they weren't "bad" they were FAR from comfortable. Great damper, too aggressive. hey lasted one week.



In summary - shock valving is the absolute KEY to a good riding street car. The retail price of the damper is far less important.



What you get with the high performance monotubes is a level of precision and chassis control that's quite impressive something a Koni-based kit can't come close too. At first, on the street, this precision overshadows how poorly they ride. But soon after their true colors show through, unfortunately.

[m3f_Cha5en]

I have seen numerous posts about how well the MCS system behaves for non-track use. So strange to see such unanimous opinion against that application here. I only noticed those posts as I was researching a suspension setup for my track car. You can find just as many people with MCS setups for street use as for track use on the forums!



For my own car I am in process of installing a 2-way MCS setup; my application, however is for track only use and I will be running higher spring rates.

So I cant comment on others decision on suspension, or why they would assume they were going to get comfort, but with the MCS I 100% had improved comfort over OE. Why did I get different results? My best assumption is, I let MCS do the valving/spring rate guidance, I told them my exact wants, as well as my trusty tech, at the time, and through MCS and Racewerkz Engineering, the car was able to be setup for street comfort in Los Angeles, CA. I suspect those who haven't been satisfied with thier MCS on the street, likely have the car valved, and sprung, for the track only, which is never going to feel better than OE.



I know it's backwards to most, but Id prefer to setup my cars for street comfort, as when we are real with out driving abilities, we quickly realize we're never going to max the car out at 10/10's on the street, and even a MCS kit setup for comfort, will provide a significant increase in lap performance, where you should be happy, unless you're Sebastian Vettel and are going racing every weekend with your buddies.



Now, the reason I no longer run these kits, are I don't intend to own my cars longer than a few months, to maybe a year, thus making the intial cost of $5,000+ not worth it. I highly recommend Koni's with a stock/dinan/HR OE spring, unless you want a low look, and then any of the adjustable kits are going to do that.



I cant stress enough though, when ordering a set, to make sure youre going through a local race shop that has an account, or really make sure Bimmerworld is custom ordering you a kit, and not just a generaically valved kit they had in stock. It took 2 months, but damn were they worth it! Very much so regret selling them off, but thats a personal story

[m3f_Bimmerman325i]

Agreed. The shock valving is the key, and my MCSs are the standard valving when purchased from Bimmerworld (I chose softer spring rates). I might try revalving and re-springing the car if it becomes more of a street car, but the stock valving isn't what I would consider great on the road.



Ultimately, mine do what I wanted-- fantastic track dampers I can drive on the street without having to rebuild all the time. Mine were never intended to be DD shocks, until my DD car died, and that's when their mediocre street manners became apparent.



Knowing what I know now, I'd just buy KONI + springs for a street car or a tracked street car. I'd still buy my MCSs again for the track car or a streeted track car.