Hot start and overall power issues

[m3f_vmbray]

Are you checking the vanos travel with exhaust cam locked down? My point was to leave it unlocked so you know the timing is set with vanos fully retarded (air pressure applied, voltage on solenoid off. Cycle on/off/on/off, lock down on off. Cycling the vanos with the exhaust cam sprocket bolted down is just travel check on the intake cam.

I just left it unlocked. I don't totally follow the part about "lock down on off"


On a different note, hooked to inpa and it shows the cam angle as 83.9 all the time, idle, 3k rpm, all the time when running. Zero when not running. Did learn the KW is Kurbelwinkel which is german for crank angle.


I'm pretty sure all the mechanicals are okay. This makes me think there is a wiring problem. I labelled the wires but the crank position setup I had to sort out as something wasn't fully labelled. Thought I had it all correct but this really makes me wonder.





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[m3f_vmbray]

And on the way home, just like that, went back to the lack of power situation. Very strange. Very dramatic difference in power. Not subtle at all.


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[m3f_vmbray]

Edit - NVM! Woot! Recoded it back to the auto coding and it seems to resolve all the issues just like that. Really didn't think that would make a difference because it's documented in the Official Manual Swap thread, and etc. Wow, it starts immediately on hot start. Running great again. So glad I didn't rip vanos apart again. Vanos apparently advances all at once, it will hover around 16-18 on idle and somewhere around 4k or 4.2k it will hop up to around 40 degrees advance. Drove around, started car several times, and now the only code is for the auto swap. The solution to that I think is to get a tune for it.


This mornings post that is obsolete now!....


Called Raj at Beisan who is very helpful and responsive about calling back


He mentioned that after the cam position and vanos mechanically jammed codes are there long enough, the computer will quit trying to use the vanos, and set the camshaft angle to a silly high number (93.89 is what mine said). After clearing the codes, the computer does indeed start using the vanos and performance is restored.


Hooked inpa to it and cleared codes again, and it shows cam angle at 16.x and fluctuates around there at idle (which sounds normal from what I've found - see post 7 here))


What is happening though is that it is not advancing from there at all. If I rev engine to 4k or so, the angle will stay around the 16 mark and actually drop to 13.x if I rev enough. The solenoid tests good at 23 ohms, and when I activate it with 12v and air, it moves perfectly. The harness is connected correctly, the vanos is the shorter of the two plugs at the end of the camshaft update secondary harness. I'm starting to wonder if the vanos is even getting a signal to advance.


I re-timed the vanos and the cam gears last weekend, very methodically, and I find it very hard to believe that I have a mechanical problem. This is my third vanos, and it throws in excess of 9mm (spec is >8.5 and with the rattle kit installed I believe you get that little extra bit of throw). When I re-did the work last weekend I was very careful and used the tools, the Bentley, the Beisan procedure, and TIS in cross reference to make sure I wasn't mis-interpreting the instructions. I even used the dummy chain tensioner. Also, my coupe had a slight mis-timing of the cams from a previous vanos job and it did not have problems like this.


The vanos engaged the first spline. Once you've done this a few times you know that this means the vanos is immediately pulled down to the timing cover when rotating the exhaust sprocket counter-clockwise, and it did.


So, in the interest of troubleshooting and looking at the evidence, I can see a few possibilities here.


1. No oil pressure to vanos causing it not to move. This seems hard to believe, and when I re-timed it, I slightly pushed piston in and plenty of oil was coming out.


2. No electrical signal from DME. I don't think there's any way to test this without a scope. Maybe the coding of the car to manual could cause this? I am going to code it back to auto and see.


3. Actual mechanical problem. Well, again hard to see, the vanos throws enthusiastically when hooked to air, and easily in excess of 9mm.


What am I missing here? The car runs great when it doesn't have a code, and I can only imagine it's going to pull harder when this is resolved. After months of work it would be really nice to get it going.


Thanks for your input!

[m3f_vmbray]

Long term update on the situation, made progress but still getting some errors.

Are you checking the vanos travel with exhaust cam locked down? My point was to leave it unlocked so you know the timing is set with vanos fully retarded (air pressure applied, voltage on solenoid off. Cycle on/off/on/off, lock down on off. Cycling the vanos with the exhaust cam sprocket bolted down is just travel check on the intake cam.

Thanks for your comments earlier, I think I should have slowed down and tried to understand this better back then. We were selling our house and trying to move etc and it was pretty overwhelming. I think I understand what you're saying here but I need it explained slower if you wouldn't mind. Bear with me and tell me if this is right:



1. Install vanos with the locking blocks installed but don't tighten exhaust sprocket.

2. remove both locking blocks.

3. cycle vanos with air a couple of times

4. re-install locking blocks, tighten exhaust sprocket, test operation (this is where your instruction 'lock down on off' part confuses me so trying to clarify)



It seems like you are saying this will help ensure the vanos piston is all the way back in the unit and whatever slack is in the mechanism is taken up maybe, ensuring that the vanos starts from the right position when it activates. I can see that is different from it throwing completely because we are trying to get the starting point correct here I think.



Anyway I guess I get to do this one more time because it is back to throwing codes. After re-reading your comments (and also found another thread where it is mentioned that in some small percentage of cases it can be tricky to get the vanos operating properly even when done correctly ) I think you are on to something.



The vanos looked in good condition when I rebuilt it so I don't think that's the problem, and it advances crisply when using the air test, or I would think it needs replacing with a different rebuilt unit. Overall wear on it looks just like my other one, and I've seen units in the junkyard that were way, way worse and clearly junk.



The long version of what has transpired since the last update (in case you're really bored or in the slim chance this is actually interesting :



1. The coding thing did make a huge difference. Hot starts are cured. Power is much more normal but intermittently better and worse.

2. I moved to PA and left the car with my buddy for a month.

3. The fuel pump died and he replaced it. (Relay has been swapped with a known good one)

4. Had an occasional chugging idle and misfires, so when I flew down to get the car I took my coil packs which seems to have fixed the misfires.

5. Found a thread talking about early vanos plungers that can catch in the bore so I chamfered the edge of the plunger yesterday to no avail, it did show some galling at the edge so I was hopeful.



The current situation is the car intermittently has normal power and torque, but usually is lacking that last bit of crispness. Lack of low end torque is the most noticeable symptom, clutch out at 1000 rpm in my coupe pulls and doesn't bog at all but this one will. Currently is throwing codes 212 vanos jammed and 65 camshaft position. Cold starts crank a bit long and will sometimes chug or make a knock almost like a gentle backfire.



We are currently in an apartment and I don't have most of my tools so when we get in the house I will try again.

[m3f_drtwofish]

vmbray, do I remember that you're in Hershey now, or am I mixing you up with someone else? If so, I can point you in the direction of our long-term family BMW specialist if you're looking for one. He's maintained my family's fleet for years including multiple e36s.

[m3f_vmbray]

vmbray, do I remember that you're in Hershey now, or am I mixing you up with someone else? If so, I can point you in the direction of our long-term family BMW specialist if you're looking for one. He's maintained my family's fleet for years including multiple e36s.

That's me yes. Thanks that might be helpful - right now I'm trying to get it sorted myself after rebuilding the engine, mostly for the satisfaction and curiosity of what is really wrong.



Do you do any autocross etc up here? The Susquehanna guys local to me are super into rallycross which is cool but also I'm pretty sure I'll be reattaching a bumper or other old bmw plastic parts so I've hesitated to do that at least until I have a proper garage where I can reattach bumper etc



I'm probably gonna head up to State College tomorrow for the CPA scca autocross.

[m3f_drtwofish]

That's me yes. Thanks that might be helpful - right now I'm trying to get it sorted myself after rebuilding the engine, mostly for the satisfaction and curiosity of what is really wrong.



Do you do any autocross etc up here? The Susquehanna guys local to me are super into rallycross which is cool but also I'm pretty sure I'll be reattaching a bumper or other old bmw plastic parts so I've hesitated to do that at least until I have a proper garage where I can reattach bumper etc



I'm probably gonna head up to State College tomorrow for the CPA scca autocross.

Sure man, give Jack Miller of Jack's Auto & Aero a call at 717-426-2336. He's down in Bainbridge about a half hour away. Feel free to tell him Justin Owens sent you his way - he's worked on my family's BMWs for two decades now so he knows us :-) Unfortunately I'm not up on the current autocross scene there since I'm down in VA nowadays, but my dad lives in York - I know he's done some and is active in the CCA, so I'll drop him a line and ask him if he has any good contacts for you.