ZCP vs CSL Wheel and Performance

[repoman89]

Does forged vs flow formed generally make the resulting wheel stronger or just lighter? For example the Apex EC-7 vs EC-7R. The R version is nearly 10% lighter and really tempting for my next track wheels — but still slightly heavier than the regular cheap ARC-8 IIRC. Still, kind of hard to justify over the regular ARC-8 just for better (IMO) looks if it’s not also stronger.

[tnord]

fair enough. perhaps I should have said they are stronger than typical aftermarket price focused wheels, but not to the level of BBS.

[Obioban]

looking a little closer at size options from BBS, I'm not real impressed. I guess this is what Apex saw and seized on, and why their wheels are so popular. Most of the strength, most of the weight reduction, in better size options, for less cost. Albeit made in China it sounds like.

I do not like to mess about with spacers, and the amount of wheels that come in an 18x10 & 18x9 option with appropriate offsets seem limited.

Apex’s are nowhere near as strong as BBS’s.

[tnord]

Regarding the BBS finishes and sizing, maybe with them being recently acquired by KW some of that will change. It sounds like Klaus wants to expand the sizing options and likely finishes as well. BBS has absolutely been resting on their laurels with regards to modern fitment needs, and I believe KW is capable of bringing them back to the front while not losing quality. I do not expect the prices to decrease much if any.

looking a little closer at size options from BBS, I'm not real impressed. I guess this is what Apex saw and seized on, and why their wheels are so popular. Most of the strength, most of the weight reduction, in better size options, for less cost. Albeit made in China it sounds like.

I do not like to mess about with spacers, and the amount of wheels that come in an 18x10 & 18x9 option with appropriate offsets seem limited.

[Tbonem3]

But I see where folks got the wider front wheel idea from… of course that makes the CSL wheel heavier than the ZCP wheel… but we can pretend not to see that.

maw

What are you talking about? I already said the weight diff between them is negligible, now you post a link with weights that show they're barely different.

Pretend not to see what?

[maw1124]

Just in case people want actual facts… https://bimmertips.com/oem-bmw-e46-m...options-specs/

Is this correct that the difference between style 67s and ZCP wheels in 19” is 2-3 lbs per corner?

But I see where folks got the wider front wheel idea from… of course that makes the CSL wheel heavier than the ZCP wheel… but we can pretend not to see that.

maw

[Nate047]

Yep.

People are obsessed with wheel weight over everything else. The best wheels come out of the forges in japan and some are super light but also super ugly like TEs. Not sure how those reached the level of fame they did. They were ugly when they came out in the 90s and they're ugly to this day. They're the aviator glasses of wheels, look good on very few people but everybody has them.

BBS are my wheel of choice but have terrible finish options that they have been clinging to for decades which is why people are stuck on csl/zcp wheels (and for good reason). RGR has a terrible rear offset and silver finish is rare plus they don't have enough pad thickness to accommodate big brakes without spacers.

Amazing comparison hahaha. I would agree. I like TEs on some cars and I have owned them before, but there's a time and place. I think the CE28N is actually a really great wheel for the E46 and not commonly seen.

Regarding the BBS finishes and sizing, maybe with them being recently acquired by KW some of that will change. It sounds like Klaus wants to expand the sizing options and likely finishes as well. BBS has absolutely been resting on their laurels with regards to modern fitment needs, and I believe KW is capable of bringing them back to the front while not losing quality. I do not expect the prices to decrease much if any.

[tnord]

I am not hung up on forged. But there seems to be a correlation between having a strong wheel, and that wheel being manufactured by a forging process.

[old///MFanatic]

And just to further complicate, factory CSL wheels are made by BBS but are not forged lol.

Yep, CSL wheels are made by BBS Germany and are made using a strong process called “Flow Formed”. (which is one step under their forged).

[Nick_P]

they look pretty good, but I still think the traditional mesh style wheel is the proper, period correct look. The RIA styling I think better matches the F80, but I do like them. I currently have 18x9 & 18x10 EC-7s on 245/275.

I have to admit I was pretty surprised watching the video about the BBS E88s on the Apex E92 M3, having the barrels crack on a pretty regular basis. Enough that they consider them a maintenance item.

I agree on both fronts. But in my case I already have the stock ZCP 19s and Apex ARC8s for track duty so looking for a different style wheel.
I’ve watched the e88 video you’re referring to, imo Apex wheels are a pretty solid offering for track…(1) relatively cheap so you can beat up on them and not care too much about brake dust building up, their finish getting destroyed, etc, (2) relatively lightweight and (3) look really good in our cars even if they’re way overplayed. Going out on track with $5K e88s would be too nerve racking for me lol

[jet_dogg]

Yea pretty much if you want nice forged street wheels that don't come from China, and you can still buy new, pony up for BBS. Most forged BBS come from Japan. There are other period correct options that pop up used sometimes.

And TBH you don't always "need" forged, and forged doesn't always mean good. Factory 19" style 67s are forged (made by Fuchs) but they weigh like 27 lbs each. And just to further complicate, factory CSL wheels are made by BBS but are not forged lol.

Yep.

People are obsessed with wheel weight over everything else. The best wheels come out of the forges in japan and some are super light but also super ugly like TEs. Not sure how those reached the level of fame they did. They were ugly when they came out in the 90s and they're ugly to this day. They're the aviator glasses of wheels, look good on very few people but everybody has them.

BBS are my wheel of choice but have terrible finish options that they have been clinging to for decades which is why people are stuck on csl/zcp wheels (and for good reason). RGR has a terrible rear offset and silver finish is rare plus they don't have enough pad thickness to accommodate big brakes without spacers.

[tnord]

BBS RIAs also come in 18” and look good in our cars imo. I’m actually considering buying a set for street-duty.
What specs would you recommend for a staggered street setup? Contemplating between 18x8.5 ET34 front or 18x9.5 et27 front.

they look pretty good, but I still think the traditional mesh style wheel is the proper, period correct look. The RIA styling I think better matches the F80, but I do like them. I currently have 18x9 & 18x10 EC-7s on 245/275.

I have to admit I was pretty surprised watching the video about the BBS E88s on the Apex E92 M3, having the barrels crack on a pretty regular basis. Enough that they consider them a maintenance item.

[Nick_P]

I don't like a wide wheel/tire up front for street use, so I'd go with an 8.5"

Yea that’s what I was leaning towards as well, as driving with my 18x9.5 track setup on street gets annoying and unnecessary over time.

[Obioban]

BBS RIAs also come in 18” and look good in our cars imo. I’m actually considering buying a set for street-duty.
What specs would you recommend for a staggered street setup? Contemplating between 18x8.5 ET34 front or 18x9.5 et27 front.

I don't like a wide wheel/tire up front for street use, so I'd go with an 8.5"

[Nick_P]

HREs aren't that great, either.

BBS is hard to beat. I'm running 17" RG-Rs on the M3 wagon (16 lbs front, 17 lbs rear), I used to run 18" RG-Rs on the M3 wagon (until I was able to find a set of 17s), I'm running 18" RG-Rs on the M5 (18 lbs front, 19 lbs rear), and, 10+ years ago, before I knew better (about 19s), I ran 19" RG-Rs on the M3. They're light, they're crazy strong, and not stupidly expensive. 8000+ ton forged in Japan, and thoroughly tested/certified.

That said, pick 2 still applies (light, cheap, well made)-- BBS's forged wheels are absolutely in the light/well made category.

BBS RIAs also come in 18” and look good in our cars imo. I’m actually considering buying a set for street-duty.
What specs would you recommend for a staggered street setup? Contemplating between 18x8.5 ET34 front or 18x9.5 et27 front.