Matt Farah of The Smoking Tire picks up an E46 M3

[t44tq]

That's only my point. Though your preference is the vert and SMG, most people who are buying this car don't want that. And the market objectively reflects the fact. Most people want the lighter, stiffer, manuel.

Considering that this is purely subjective, why does it matter?

I have an S54 clownshoe, so I didn't feel bad about getting a manual convertible, because it's totally different from my other BMW.

If you read a lot of the contemporary reviews, there is mention that the convertible makes for a great GT car and allows you to enjoy the engine sound more. Yes, it's overweight and definitely lacks some rigidity, but it's still pretty darn good to drive.

[maw1124]

Of course... preferences ebb and flow.

These make great cigar conversations BTW, which is I guess why we have them virtually.

Cheers Gents,

maw

[Jimbo's M]

I actually remember when people wanted the 6MT (in this car and others, mainly Porsches) simply BECAUSE they were rarer (and cost more money).

That in itself I would think says something about what the market is bearing. When I bought my M new in '01, SMG was an ~$2300 "upgrade". I guess the table has turned for those reasons which have been discussed earlier. People want manual gear boxes before they're dinosaurs.

[maw1124]

There is ZERO downside to a stiffer chassis— it’s only 100% better.

I'm not confused ... he said what he said and I understood him perfectly. He's a very close friend who's owned his own German service shop for as long as I've been alive. Very successful, very knowledgable for customers way more experienced and discerning than me.

You all just disagree on this point.

A stiffer chassis lets you run a softer suspension for more grip and better ride quality.

You all agree here.

I already made my decision. This car is already plenty low and stiff for me. Having Koni yellows on another car roughly this size, I may or may not deploy them here when the time comes. But for the rears I just went with new stock.

maw

[01SG]

I'm simply stating that a lot of the recent price hike are fueled by the collector car market and not really by the enthusiasts.

Oh, that may be. I was thinking merely of the differential between different spec cars. And I don't think it's manual coupes or nothing, it just is for me personally. I wouldn't get any sports car without a manual. Every m3 is awesome, the majority just have a specific preference.

[Obioban]

There is ZERO downside to a stiffer chassis— it’s only 100% better. What they were telling you is that the stock suspension is too stiff for less stiff vert chassis. The chassis isn’t stiff enough.

A stiffer chassis lets you run a softer suspension for more grip and better ride quality. A less stiff chassis does not improve ride quality or grip— at all, in any way.

chassis stiffness and suspension stiffness are very different things.

[maw1124]

They sold slightly more manuals than SMG but.... Manual coupe numbers are less than Manual verts+SMG coupes+ SMG verts together. I'm not debating what is a better car or what is more desirable in todays market. I'm simply stating that a lot of the recent price hike are fueled by the collector car market and not really by the enthusiasts. I think it's really silly to think it's manual coupes or nothing when so many people didn't necessarily want those things when they were brand new. It's not that i couldn't get a manual coupe, it just wasn't desirable to me.

I actually remember when people wanted the 6MT (in this car and others, mainly Porsches) simply BECAUSE they were rarer (and cost more money). Wasn't long ago -- less than 10 years. Then over the past few years people started layering on levels of self congratulatory, bubble-driven justifications for what is simply a naked rarity, market value, collector driven choice. Not everyone who prefers a stick did this -- some are pure in their desire to row gears, which I can respect. But now too many people don't know which is which -- is it more expensive because it's better, or is it better because it's more expensive, or is it better because it's rarer, or is it rarer because it's better, or rarer because it's more expensive...? Or is it just cooler? Poor kids. Just drive them both and see, which I admit isn't as easy now as it was when I bought mine.

For example, I know knowledgeable track focused people who have told me to my face that my SMG vert chassis is too stiff as it is from the factory, that's why it slides and drifts in corners, because the chassis doesn't flex enough for it to handle better. Someone here has a great sticky on how not to destroy these cars with suspension mods, which instructs that the softer the chassis the MORE grip the car has; and the stiffer the chassis, the LESS grip the car has. Which actually confirms what the knowledgeable track focused people have told me, even though it was counter-intuitive to someone like me who was trying to spend money to "upgrade" the suspension. Great work on that, BTW, Obioban. Yet I should believe that "everyone" wants the lighter, stiffer car. Ummmm... not really.

Yet I've met a grand total of ZERO people in person who disrespect the paddles, even though we all know the collectors will all chase rarity and some people want to row gears (until they get tired of it, which ALMOST everyone eventually does). The pure are the pure, and hats off to them. Funny, my vanity plate is "M-PURIST" -- we're all enthusiasts or we wouldn't fart around with old cars.

I consider myself an enthusiast collector -- I like certain well executed cars, and I think the market in the future will reward my choices. By and large that's what happens. It's not that I couldn't get a manual coupe, it just...

Absolutely perfect.

maw

[humarahumara]

I disagree. When new they still sold slightly more manuals according to this forum https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa...umbers.204808/. And the market for a new BMW is very different from the one for a classic BMW. I suspect the share of this particular market today comprises far more enthusiasts percentage wise than when they were new. When new you still had the whole crowd strictly interested in image and status, having the latest greatest BMW. They moved on. You can argue they have been replaced by speculators looking for the next big investment, but that is a recent phenomenon. And that would not explain why every level of the market reflects the same trend. Whether it is the cheapest, rattiest M3, or the pristine collectible. Manual and coupe are always worth more than SMG and convertible. This trend is driven by the enthusiast. Collectors want the best expression of the thing, the coupe manual is recognized as the greatest E46 M3, excluding the CSL.

You're confusing the car market as a whole with the enthusiast subset that is interested in an aging M3. The car market as a whole does not want a manual. The old-school enthusiast market clearly and definitively prefers the manual. That's why every car that offered the choice of manual or other has a premium across the board for the manual. Ferrari, Porsche, BMW on down. This is most clear in the case of the e46, where there's plenty of both option. Fairly, with the F430, only approximately ten percent were manual. There the limited availability clearly applies.

This is nothing against the SMG or convertible. They're cool in their own right and totally different. But there are legitimate reasons that everyone can feel while driving which drive the price difference. I place higher value on the involvement of the manual, as do most in this particular enthusiast driven subset of the market. That's nothing against the tech of the SMG or fun of a convertible.

They sold slightly more manuals than SMG but.... Manual coupe numbers are less that Manual verts+SMG coupes+ SMG verts together. I'm not debating what is a better car or what is more desirable in todays market. I'm simply stating that a lot of the recent price hike are fueled by the collector car market and not really by the enthusiasts. I think it's really silly to think it's manual coupes or nothing when so many people didn't necessarily want those things when they were brand new. It's not that i couldn't get a manual coupe, it just wasn't desirable to me.

[Albino09]

As someone with no intention of selling, the increased value doesn't benefit me.

... whereas if they get too valuable, people will stop tracking them and stop modding them... and then new and cool mods will cease to come out.

10-15 years ago, if I went to a BMWCCA event, half the cars on track were e30 M3s. These days it's exciting if there's one. I don't want the e46 M3 to become that.

I mean, good cars of finite numbers tend to increase in value. Fortunately for us, they built far more E46 M3s than they did E30 M3s so, in theory, it should be a lot longer for that transition to happen. It would be more productive to be mad at BMW for drifting further away from the ideals of our cars and towards whatever it is they're doing now. Now that every OEM has announced the intention to go all-electric at some vague future point, the "best-of" analog cars from the 90s till now are all going to go up until they're no longer viable to enjoy on public roads.

[Obioban]

I'd love to know why values of our cars going up could be anything but good. It's already at the point now that I could get out for what I paid 7 years ago, and I've been able to enjoy the car for 50k miles AND had a minor accident. Not that I'm looking to sell, but the knowledge these cars could be positive cash flow in the future if they needed to be is definitely better than the alternative, IMO.

As someone with no intention of selling, the increased value doesn't benefit me.

... whereas if they get too valuable, people will stop tracking them and stop modding them... and then new and cool mods will cease to come out.

10-15 years ago, if I went to a BMWCCA event, half the cars on track were e30 M3s. These days it's exciting if there's one. I don't want the e46 M3 to become that.

[maw1124]

Low mileage E46 M3 coupe with manual kills SMG, convertibles, and doubly so an SMG convertible. BAT bears this out and it won't change. There is a convertible 64k mile Imola exterior and black interior car for sale right now on BAT and it is doing very poorly by comparison with an hour to go (could jump up massively and have seen that happen but...). On my BAT spreadsheet that gap is widening, not decreasing.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...onvertible-61/

Yeah, I'm looking at that same one from the BaT thread (I put it there). At what these things are selling for, I'm telling the 1/2 dozen people a year who ask me about them to grab them up as the deal of the century. For $25k these things can't be beat, and I don't see this red one hitting that number (unless craziness ensues in the last few minutes). Someone is going to buy that SMG vert off your hands down the line for more than you paid for it, unless you clap it out with Chinesium and run it into the ground. AND you're going to have an absolute ball with the car for that money while you own it. I certainly have.

maw

[oceansize]

Low mileage E46 M3 coupe with manual kills SMG, convertibles, and doubly so an SMG convertible. BAT bears this out and it won't change. There is a convertible 64k mile Imola exterior and black interior car for sale right now on BAT and it is doing very poorly by comparison with an hour to go (could jump up massively and have seen that happen but...). On my BAT spreadsheet that gap is widening, not decreasing.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...onvertible-61/

[01SG]

I think the manual coupe thing is fueled by mostly the collector car market and then secondly by the enthusiast. There's no way in hell BMW could sell 8X,XXX manual e46 m3 coupes. The vast majority of buyers during the 01-06 run didn't want that and the market reflects that (SMG's, Verts etc). The reason why manuals are dying off if because the vast majority of folks don't want them. The shear limited # of manuals remaining fuel the market.
I'm fortunate enough to own 2 e46 m3. I know most folks probably think i got it completely wrong. (Maybe i do.) I own a SMG coupe and manual vert. Why? because when i'm cruising around town in the vert the 6 speed is way easier to control and modulate for a smooth fun ride. When i want go fast in the twisties that's where the SMG coupe shines. I love both and enjoy the transmissions for what they are.

I disagree. When new they still sold slightly more manuals according to this forum https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa...umbers.204808/. And the market for a new BMW is very different from the one for a classic BMW. I suspect the share of this particular market today comprises far more enthusiasts percentage wise than when they were new. When new you still had the whole crowd strictly interested in image and status, having the latest greatest BMW. They moved on. You can argue they have been replaced by speculators looking for the next big investment, but that is a recent phenomenon. And that would not explain why every level of the market reflects the same trend. Whether it is the cheapest, rattiest M3, or the pristine collectible. Manual and coupe are always worth more than SMG and convertible. This trend is driven by the enthusiast. Collectors want the best expression of the thing, the coupe manual is recognized as the greatest E46 M3, excluding the CSL.

You're confusing the car market as a whole with the enthusiast subset that is interested in an aging M3. The car market as a whole does not want a manual. The old-school enthusiast market clearly and definitively prefers the manual. That's why every car that offered the choice of manual or other has a premium across the board for the manual. Ferrari, Porsche, BMW on down. This is most clear in the case of the e46, where there's plenty of both option. Fairly, with the F430, only approximately ten percent were manual. There the limited availability clearly applies.

This is nothing against the SMG or convertible. They're cool in their own right and totally different. But there are legitimate reasons that everyone can feel while driving which drive the price difference. I place higher value on the involvement of the manual, as do most in this particular enthusiast driven subset of the market. That's nothing against the tech of the SMG or fun of a convertible.

[BearDeXPS]

EAG didn't have a Ford Fiesta ST to sell him?

LOL

[maw1124]

I think the manual coupe thing is fueled by mostly the collector car market and then secondly by the enthusiast. There's no way in hell BMW could sell 8X,XXX manual e46 m3 coupes. The vast majority of buyers during the 01-06 run didn't want that and the market reflects that (SMG's, Verts etc). The reason why manuals are dying off if because the vast majority of folks don't want them. The shear limited # of manuals remaining fuel the market.
I'm fortunate enough to own 2 e46 m3. I know most folks probably think i got it completely wrong. (Maybe i do.) I own a SMG coupe and manual vert. Why? because when i'm cruising around town in the vert the 6 speed is way easier to control and modulate for a smooth fun ride. When i want go fast in the twisties that's where the SMG coupe shines. I love both and enjoy the transmissions for what they are.

Thank you. I agree. The "light, stiff, manual" preference wasn't as strong when I bought mine (why I didn't see it coming), and I don't think it's permanent (but if it is who cares). The collectors and enthusiasts will chase what they chase; everyone else will buy a hell of a car for cheap. It is what it is.

What's great about this car is it can do leisure or the twisties well enough for 90% of its market in either form. That's what made it a clear "future collector", so I bought it early.

Lately, however, some of the cars I might want to own are only worth having in manual form. A 928 GTS is the poster child for this -- not the fastest or nimblest but worth owning provided I can control my own shift points. The 740i 6MT swaps are this same thing to me. At the same time, I don't drive nearly as much as I used to, so maybe a manual isn't as big of a headache. And if it is I have other cars. These days nearly all my driving is as you describe driving your vert -- putzing around, can get on it when I need to, but whatever when I don't. So what you've written is a clear way to think about it.

Cheers,

maw