Trying to decide: e46 M3 vs F82 M4 vs 997.2

[Toby22]

Excuse me? I don't owe it to you or anyone to explain that I have a disability. Three pedals do literally annoy me, that's not a lie, but for a different reason than you're expecting.

You obviously have no fucking idea what its like living with a disability, so don't go around telling me how to live my life.

To borrow a phrase I hate because it absolutely applies... Check your privilege, dude.

Whoa, that escalated quickly…

[werfer]

e46 m3 with DCT swap sounds like the ticket if that swap is possible/reasonable.

[Nate047]

If by "sums up my approach to cars" you mean "how I interact with cars as a result of disability" then yes.

I'm really sick of having to defend my choice to buy a car I can actually drive because so many car people are of the opinion a proper sports car needs to have 3 pedals, and feel the need to harangue anyone who does not fully agree.

Maybe next time say something about how you can’t drive 3 pedals due to a disability. That’s very different than saying 3 pedals “annoy” you, which implies something else entirely.

[EthanolTurbo]

What about a 2012+ ISF, RCF or GSF? Each offers bulletproof reliability, stable resale values, excellent performance on and off track, good aftermarket support, a fun throaty engine that'll take a beating and never let you down, along with very nice 8 speed transmissions. They're kind of an unsung hero amongst daily driven V8 performance cars.

[jvit27]

997.2 will feel like an upgrade from the E46, F82 will not. The 3.8L is good but is not as special as the S54, which is more akin to a smaller displacement Mezger. M4 is arguably a better daily driver, but it will leave something to be desired for your use case.

PDK is much better than SMG, as is DCT too. (FWIW my E46 is SMG).

IMO 981 Cayman is the move. Later gen PDK, nicer interior, better handling than the 911, and quite a bit newer. Some very good deals to be had on anything that doesn't have 3 pedals

[Aeko]

I think every enthusiast car of the past decade has been brought up here. I think parameters need to be refined: rwd or awd, turbo or Na, autocross capable or comfortable..May I add the Aston Martin V8 Vantage, or that Maserati coupe, if comfort is a priority.

....But the E36 automatic has to be a disappointment. That car needs a manual.

Honestly I'm beginning to think my "Goldilocks" car may require a DCT swap so I'm looking at cars I know that's possible in, or at least has been done more than once by some random guy in his garage. I am thinking back to the E36 just because I know there's endless aftermarket and I do have a soft spot for them.

My preferences are:
-RWD
-NA
-Autocross capable

As far as comfort goes I mainly want an adjustable seating position and decently comfy seats. Ride quality is second to handling for this particular kind of weekend category I'm trying to find, as long as it doesn't have "break your spine" level of firm suspension.

Lighter would be sub 3000 lbs. Properly light would be sub 2500 lbs. or better yet, sub 2000 lbs. 1M isn't light. Try a '99 Porsche 996 early build, a 996 GT3 or a Boxster/Cayman 986/987. Or as I said previously, get a longnose 911 and have it hot-rodded- they are properly light. I have experience with a '70 911T with a 3.2 Carrera engine- works great when you're sub 2500 lbs. with 230 hp.

I don't like turbocharged power delivery, so I would recommend against it- the E46 is pretty nice with the 6 throttle bodies.

Go drive a ND Miata with proper suspension and tell me that isn't fun to drive. Flyin Miata V8 conversion on the ND would be pretty fantastic.

I didn't get it until I owned one- had a '90 Miata. Lightness trumps all. (not just Miata, but Lotus, etc.) Go Turo a Miata for a week in good weather and I think even with a relatively stock suspension, you'll get it. There's a damn good reason why the McLaren F1 and the GMA T.50 are sub 2600 lbs. It's much easier to make a good responsive chassis and suspension when you're not straddled with tons of weight.

Noted. I'm not sure I'm up for owning a classic 911. I do really love the look of them but just the thought of owning a 40+ year old car...ehhh.

I have considered 996s or the Cayman. I'll look around again for those.

I like Miatas, but 2 seaters give me legitimate claustrophobia, I cannot stand sitting in them. I don't know what it is about having the rear seats that makes me more comfortable. I'm also not keen on convertibles, but open to it if the car proves to be a good option with a hard vert top.

Btw, thanks everyone for playing 20 questions with me being a picky-ass car enthusiast.

[Aeko]

If this really TRULY sums up your approach to cars, you should just get a 997 cab.

If by "sums up my approach to cars" you mean "how I interact with cars as a result of disability" then yes.

I'm really sick of having to defend my choice to buy a car I can actually drive because so many car people are of the opinion a proper sports car needs to have 3 pedals, and feel the need to harangue anyone who does not fully agree.

[Nate047]

Needs paddles. 3 pedals annoy me.

If this really TRULY sums up your approach to cars, you should just get a 997 cab.

[t44tq]

Or the ugly duckling NC, better yet. The ND suffers from the same EPS syndrome as most modern cars. Mazda’s implementation certainly isn’t terrible but still leaves a lot to be desired vs the previous gen, IMO. I agree with the general point that a Miata is more fun in more situations than almost anything.

I didn't mention the NC because it seems to be hated by a bunch of non-Miata people. I personally prefer the NC2/3 as a starting point- 2.5L Duratec w/ cams, supercharger, Ohlins, BBFW rollbar, seats, harnesses, lightweight wheels and it's still cheaper than an Elise/Exige and less fragile.

[repoman89]

Go drive a ND Miata with proper suspension and tell me that isn't fun to drive.

Or the ugly duckling NC, better yet. The ND suffers from the same EPS syndrome as most modern cars. Mazda’s implementation certainly isn’t terrible but still leaves a lot to be desired vs the previous gen, IMO. I agree with the general point that a Miata is more fun in more situations than almost anything.

[t44tq]

All that being said maybe I should try some of the lighter offerings like a 1M just to try it. Has anyone DCT swapped a 1M? A quick Google search turns up nothing. Maybe a 135i?

For a while I also lusted after the Euro e36 M3. I wonder if one with a ZHP rack would change my mind enough to ignore the interior.

Lighter would be sub 3000 lbs. Properly light would be sub 2500 lbs. or better yet, sub 2000 lbs. 1M isn't light. Try a '99 Porsche 996 early build, a 996 GT3 or a Boxster/Cayman 986/987. Or as I said previously, get a longnose 911 and have it hot-rodded- they are properly light. I have experience with a '70 911T with a 3.2 Carrera engine- works great when you're sub 2500 lbs. with 230 hp.

I don't like turbocharged power delivery, so I would recommend against it- the E46 is pretty nice with the 6 throttle bodies.

Go drive a ND Miata with proper suspension and tell me that isn't fun to drive. Flyin Miata V8 conversion on the ND would be pretty fantastic.

I didn't get it until I owned one- had a '90 Miata. Lightness trumps all. (not just Miata, but Lotus, etc.) Go Turo a Miata for a week in good weather and I think even with a relatively stock suspension, you'll get it. There's a damn good reason why the McLaren F1 and the GMA T.50 are sub 2600 lbs. It's much easier to make a good responsive chassis and suspension when you're not straddled with tons of weight.

[01SG]

I think every enthusiast car of the past decade has been brought up here. I think parameters need to be refined: rwd or awd, turbo or Na, autocross capable or comfortable..May I add the Aston Martin V8 Vantage, or that Maserati coupe, if comfort is a priority.

The E46 steering feel is only okay, and the E36 is definitely much better. But the E36 automatic has to be a disappointment. That car needs a manual.

A 135 would handle, but you lose the engine character.

[stephen]

t44tq,

You might be right since I keep thinking back to how much I liked the GR86 steering. Other than the super slow ratio I did like the steering in my e36 328i as well. The main issue is as much as I like the e36 style and comparable simplicity to modern cars, the interior quality just feels abysmal to me. The dash is very fisher-price IMO. I'm kind of surprised I like the e39 M5 steering as much as I do, though.

Thinking about it now, the first 10 years or more I spent driving it was always in a vehicle with highly boosted steering (mostly trucks) so that may have really thrown off my expectations. I wouldn't say any of those vehicles had great feel, just to be clear.

All that being said maybe I should try some of the lighter offerings like a 1M just to try it. Has anyone DCT swapped a 1M? A quick Google search turns up nothing. Maybe a 135i?

For a while I also lusted after the Euro e36 M3. I wonder if one with a ZHP rack would change my mind enough to ignore the interior.

My vote is euro M3. E36 steering with fresh front suspension, E34 u joint, and good summer tires is sublime.

[Aeko]

t44tq,

You might be right since I keep thinking back to how much I liked the GR86 steering. Other than the super slow ratio I did like the steering in my e36 328i as well. The main issue is as much as I like the e36 style and comparable simplicity to modern cars, the interior quality just feels abysmal to me. The dash is very fisher-price IMO. I'm kind of surprised I like the e39 M5 steering as much as I do, though.

Thinking about it now, the first 10 years or more I spent driving it was always in a vehicle with highly boosted steering (mostly trucks) so that may have really thrown off my expectations. I wouldn't say any of those vehicles had great feel, just to be clear.

All that being said maybe I should try some of the lighter offerings like a 1M just to try it. Has anyone DCT swapped a 1M? A quick Google search turns up nothing. Maybe a 135i?

For a while I also lusted after the Euro e36 M3. I wonder if one with a ZHP rack would change my mind enough to ignore the interior.

[oceansize]

OP- if you feel that the E46 M3 had poor feel, then all of the cars you mention are not going to improve much and more likely, will be far worse. You need to look at much lighter cars if your impression was that the E46 M3 had zero feel. Start looking at Lotus Elise/Exige, longhood 911s, Miata. I've never driven an Alfa 4C, but that might be something to consider as well.

High curb weight, electric power assist steering, super-wide tires, all of these will make the steering feel bad. I noticed when I went from stock tire configuration to 265 square, the steering feel suffered quite a bit.

In thinking about it I agree with this. Definitely splitting hairs when we are talking about steering "feel" on all these high powered modern and semi-modern cars. I've driven a 4c (a car dealer friend local to me had one) and it is a complete go cart but I would just stick with a Miata and add a little power rather than incur everything Alfa ownership brings along. I will say the owner of the 4c had no problems under his ownership but he didn't drive it often either.