Trying to decide: e46 M3 vs F82 M4 vs 997.2

[bigjae46]

The F82 is bigger than an E92. Just a thought.

If you want something DIY-able then an E46 M3 is the route to go. They require a lot more stuff than an E9X and later but are also much easier to wrench on.

The E9X M3 is probably the middle ground of hell for DIYing because it does require wrenching in a crowded engine bay. The F8X is relatively reliable and low maintenance.

If it were me, I'd get into an F87 M2 Comp.

[IamFODI]

Steering is one of the few driving-engagement-related things the E9x M3 does better than the E46 M3. If you didn’t think it felt right, definitely try another.

E9x is definitely in a weird no-man’s land between M3 and M5, IMO. I can see looking at it as more of an M5 replacement than an M3 replacement.

I drove an automatic C7 and thought the auto was catastrophically bad, especially for that kind of car. Hard to imagine it’s the same trans as BMW uses.

As a rule, for any significant engine/trans swap, you should assume you’re giving up some reliability (often a lot). Some notable exceptions (e.g. E46 SMG to MT), but in general the amount of stuff you have to tear into, mod, re-code, etc. almost guarantees weird issues at some point. You said this is a weekend car so maybe this wouldn’t be much of a problem for you. Still, I’d think it’d be best to stick to:

1. Cars that are auto stock, and
2. Maybe, at a push, cars that had an auto option (and when you swap, pick the trans that was the option for that car).

Also, most manual cars will command a significant price premium over their auto counterparts. You’d be throwing that money away by swapping it. Far more cost-effective to find something that’s auto to begin with. E.g., instead of looking for a 1M, find an auto or DCT E82 and swap over all the 1M suspension bits etc.

[Aeko]

Ah fair enough! Wasn't sure how open to swaps you were. Coolest thing about the 1M is all the E9x M3 components it has.

IMO, ultimate swap (of that gen) is an S65 into a 1M (or other 1 series with all the M body panels).

For my needs I may very well have to auto swap something, which I'm open to if it's feasible and has been done before. I don't have the kind of money to pay someone to CNC a custom adapter and do a custom TCU setup.

I had a similar thought about the S65 in an e46! I feel like it would pair really well with that chassis. I really liked the S65 enough I want to find another e9x to try because I'm convinced the one I drove had something wrong, possibly with the servotronic.

Could also find a 335is. N54 and DCT

I'm keeping an eye out for one. Finding one that hasn't absolutely been beaten to hell and back is a chore, though.

I'm still trying to see if I can find a 135i to test drive but apparently that's a tall order as well. There's one place near me that has one but they haven't picked up their phone and that's usually not a great sign imo

[stephen]

Could also find a 335is. N54 and DCT

[heinzboehmer]

If I really like the 1M it would be a pretty easy ZF8 swap. There's lots of support for it on the N54 especially.

Ah fair enough! Wasn't sure how open to swaps you were. Coolest thing about the 1M is all the E9x M3 components it has.

IMO, ultimate swap (of that gen) is an S65 into a 1M (or other 1 series with all the M body panels).

Only bad thing about 1Ms is that they're not super easy to find. There's a ton in Mexico, but a pain to import

[Aeko]

1M only came in manual. 135is sounds like what you would want. Basically a 135i but with the E9x M3 DCT.

If I really like the 1M it would be a pretty easy ZF8 swap. There's lots of support for it on the N54 especially.

[heinzboehmer]

I'm having a hard time finding Caymans but I still want to drive one of those and a 135i or 1M if I can find one.

1M only came in manual. 135is sounds like what you would want. Basically a 135i but with the E9x M3 DCT.

[Aeko]

Okay NOW we're getting somewhere. Drove as many cars as I could today and here are the ones I liked in order:

2017 M2 Base - Overall, really good. Love the steering, love the handling, size is decent. Not a huge fan of the turbo motors but this one was pretty satisfying. I'm curious about the Comp vs Base as far as features and comfort go. Also sound wise. The n55 sound I liked.

E92 M3 - Love it, but I think the one I drove had issues with the power steering. It took twice as much effort to steer it as my e46 M3, so I can't say for certain on the feel. LOVE the S65 and DCT, amazing combo. More space than the M2 so that's a slight bonus. I definitely would consider replacing my M5 with one of these.

Q60 Redsport - Even though this is more of a car I'd pick as a daily because it errs more on the side of comfort, I did really like it. Extremely nice interior quality, quick, handled decently. Steering was light but decent. Again, more of a daily spec car.

C7 Vette - Drove it just because, and I overall did like it. It didn't feel *as* claustrophobic as some of the other 2 seaters because it has the cargo space directly behind you, and I think that would be doable for similar cars (like the Supra, but ran out of time today to test one). The auto is really slow though.

Mach 1 - It's good "on paper." But the feel and build quality left me really wanting more for the price. The steering felt like it had sand running through it or something, it felt gritty at any speed. The interior material quality was average at best. The C7 had much nicer build quality. Engine and 10 speed were good.

I'm having a hard time finding Caymans but I still want to drive one of those and a 135i or 1M if I can find one.

At this point I'm probably going to be searching in tandem for a few cars and buy whatever pops up as a good deal for a clean example. I'm gravitating to the M2 and 997.2 with the E92 M3 being in a close third.

P.s. Nate was kind enough to reach out to me and we resolved our issues. All is well.

[t44tq]

Cayman (987 if I can find one, possibly 981) - No input/would not settle for less than a 911

if OP doesn't like two seaters, this is not going to be a good choice

Supra - Might climb to the top of your list after you drive one; budget?

again, a two seater

135i / 1M - Factory DCT + E46 M3-esque power to weight ratio / Budget?

Just FYI to OP- 1M only came in manual

Z4M - S54 again and you dont like cramped cars. Would eliminate

The Z4M coupe is definitely claustrophobic- very high sills, poor visibility and a two seater

[t44tq]

If you're getting a 997.2, which, IMHO, is a pretty good choice, there's a big difference between the 3.6L base car and the 3.8L S. The base Carrera feels like it needs another 100 hp to be entertaining. It's a very nice place to be, and the PDK is a wonderful transmission. Note that the early PDK cars might have the buttons on the wheel, but that is fixable with a paddle conversion- at least Suncoast used to sell this- not sure if they still have the parts.

The S feels properly fast, although by today's standards, it's not. But it's a nice driving car, with good steering feel, great suspension setup, easy to drive hard, has decent midrange torque. It's not a really heavy pig and it's not too big, like the 991s.

E9x M3 with DCT might be a good choice- they're comfy, handle fine, very heavy but manageable within it's limits (high consumable cost).

Not too many cars that have a good auto/paddle shift and are good sports cars. Mustang GT/Mach 1/Bullitt with the 10 speed auto would be a good alternative if you don't mind a Mustang.

[Boost]

E9x M3
RC F
Cayman (987 if I can find one, possibly 981)
Mach 1
GR86
Supra (sat in one, need to drive it)
135 / 1M?
997.2 (if price drops. Drove 997.1 Auto)
E36 Euro spec (ZF8 swap?)
Z4M coupe?

E9x M3 - Safest, most logical step up from an E46 M3, imo. Stiff chassis, good handling dynamics. Only ~3 inches longer and ~200-300lb heaver than an E46 M3. ~8 inches shorter and ~300lb lighter than an E39 M5.

RC F - No input

Cayman (987 if I can find one, possibly 981) - No input/would not settle for less than a 911

Mach 1 - Interesting.. Budget?

GR86 - Arguably least prestigious car on list, but might check your boxes at a lower price

Supra - Might climb to the top of your list after you drive one; budget?

135i / 1M - Factory DCT + E46 M3-esque power to weight ratio / Budget?

997.2 - Budget?

E36 Euro - Needs to be built

Z4M - S54 again and you dont like cramped cars. Would eliminate

[Boost]

For shits and giggles,

Car & Driver gave the RC-F a 6.5 out of 10

Edmunds gave the RC-F a 6.9 out of 10

CarWow gave the RC-F a 7.0 out of 10

CNet gave the RC-F a 6.8 out of 10

----

In regard to the RC platform as a whole,

Car & Driver gave it a 5.5 out of 10

US News gave it a 7.4 out of 10

TopGear gave it a 5.0 out of 10

The Car Connection gave it a 6.0 out of 10

----

Is any of this to say that..

1. the RC-F is slow?
2. the RC-F is an objectively bad car?
3. the RC-F is not well-received by its owners & consumers?
4. our purchase decisions should be based solely on reviews from so-called online experts?

Of course not.

But is it to say that the RC-F is an imperfect car whose potential drawbacks or shortcomings might be of particular interest or significance to an M3F member looking to replace their E46 M3?

Yes.

[Boost]

..have heard from people with our kind of background that the RC chassis is bloated/boaty/dull; perhaps the F trim addresses or masks some of that feedback

Here is my friend's bone stock RCF with just springs, wheels and tires running faster times than most dedicated track cars at Buttonwillow.

https://youtu.be/tBqY9monm8o

Didn't say it was a slow car.

[Aeko]

Yeah the GS-F is the one to get, at least for me. It's kind of Lexus' take on a modern E39 M5, with a very similar motor in terms of powerband, displacement and redline. Rare and understated too.

The e39 is a bit boaty in size for me, so the GS platform seems just too large. The RC felt like it was probably the biggest size of car I'd enjoy driving even though it is about the same size of the e39. If I find a car I really love everything but the size of, I could probably forgive the hugeness as long as it's not bigger than the e39. The e39 is already a tight squeeze in my garage.

Updated my previous list because I forgot about the GR86

[EthanolTurbo]

I haven’t tried the new is500, but I’m sure I would take it over RC-F. I wasn’t a big fan of the RC-F, but it had the power the 350’s are missing, so a nice comfy reliable v8 sedan would be right up my alley.

Concur about the GS-F though. Would absolutely take one over is500. Prices in Canada for GS-F are comical though so had kind of forgot about it.

Yeah the GS-F is the one to get, at least for me. It's kind of Lexus' take on a modern E39 M5, with a very similar motor in terms of powerband, displacement and redline. Rare and understated too.