Ross Performance Harmonic Balancer

[stash1]

I remember a while back that someone posted about a new balancer from Ross Performance, but don't remember if anyone ever purchased/used one? I searched but can't remember if that discussion took place on the old defunct forum or not? Anyone on here have any additional 'practical' insight/info?

[Anri]

I remember a while back that someone posted about a new balancer from Ross Performance, but don't remember if anyone ever purchased/used one? I searched but can't remember if that discussion took place on the old defunct forum or not? Anyone on here have any additional 'practical' insight/info?

Stan,

Whisper to my ear why are you wanting
to upgrade the damper ?

Give me more info.

Regards
Anri

[stash1]

Stan,

Whisper to my ear why are you wanting
to upgrade the damper ?

Give me more info.

Regards
Anri

Hey brother, sorry, didn't see your reply. Ehh, getting ready for a new build, and I know that the factory balancer is only optimized (like most) to work in a fairly narrow rpm range. So, was just wondering if the Ross balancer was any better at controlling harmonics over a wider range...plus it's just a bit cheaper.

[PHNX636]

I think this is the thread you're looking for but I don't think anyone pulled the trigger on one.

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/special-interests/track-autox/140745-s54-harmonic-damper-thoughts/page2

[ethan]

I'm also looking for an alternative to a new stock part. I purchased a VAC damper for my engine rebuild a while back in the hopes that it would help offset my using a 14lb steel flywheel, but it just ate serpentine belts and threw AC ones (among other problems.) Looks to me like VAC repurposed an existing damper (ATI - itself a nice piece) which is really too thick to fit in this application and then botched the billet pulley design. Sent them details but they've just left me hanging - expensive paperweight.

Would love a review of the Ross Performance part, or to hear others' experiences with the VAC/ATI setup. Also interested in info about what track enthusiasts and especially non-stock flywheel users are doing for dampers these days. New stock costs an arm and a leg at FCP presumably because it's replaced so often...

[ethan]

I think this is the thread you're looking for but I don't think anyone pulled the trigger on one.

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/s...thoughts/page2

Just read this thread. Exactly what I've been dealing with. Sucks.

[stash1]

I think this is the thread you're looking for but I don't think anyone pulled the trigger on one.

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/s...thoughts/page2

Nah, that’s more or less an ATI specific thread…there was a thread on the old M3F that I believe dealt specifically w/the Ross balancer. But thanx for trying to help!

[Anri]

Stan,

Slowly loosing my desire to reply...may be I am getting old and care less..to help
people but let me try to save your coin..and your New upcoming 380rwhp Dyno-Jet
S54 expensive build.

I know that the factory balancer is only optimized (like most) to work in a fairly narrow rpm range

There is no scientific prove that the std S54 damper is designed only for narrow range
of frequency, period ! So I will disagree with this statement.

Those articles everybody reads on damper web pages says that factory has narrow
range is very General statement. BMW Motorsport GmbH has been messing and improving
the inline six for the passed 50 years+. BMW produced the Best Inline 6cylinder engines
in NA form( not the new shuff)... I have yet to see a better inline 6 than BMW.
If you study the S54 engine every single part has been designed with purpose and improved
from reducing weight off the engine block, reducing the crankshaft weight via the
counter weights composition etc. I can keep pointing for hours on every single part/area
how it has been designed for optimum weight and performance so do the damper.

S54 is designed from the factory with warranty to cover 7950+/- 50 rpm. BMW
with its long experience with inline-6 designed the S54 damper to work with
the hi revving engine concept. Remember between the street engine and the race
engine there is only 400-500rpm more! so the limits are nearly reached on the inline
6 revs with this damper design.

A crankshafts is one large spring or a torsion bar. Most BMW crankshaft thru the history
are all forged steel. BMW Motorsport was using on M1 M88/1 Pro-Car CrMo45 steel family.

Starting with E34M5 S38-B36 3.6 BMW moved to CrMo42 steel family which If memory serves
me well its around 10-12% stronger material than 45 so the crankshaft will have better
longevity.

Factory have the budget and the equipment to test the crankshaft twist. How this is
done is via Oscilloscope. When the engine is at the engine dyno they spend days testing and
testing and collecting data. Ones the data is collected then the damper is designed accordingly
and then re-tested.

10 years ago on my S38 engine I wanted to upgrade the damper and after massive
conversation with ATi engineer things did not end well...during our talk. Stan, all of these
companies have never done a test as what Factory did under their r@d. I mean nobody
have installed an S54 engine on engine dyno to test, let alone to create a damper for
specific engine and use, period !!!!! Ask Bruce form TX with E30M3 S54 track car how
he shredded the ATi damper on the second track day...and $600 went in the toilet.
A chap installed Fluid Damper and had nasty crank vibrations....A racer with
S52 US who shredded as well the ATI damper...on ST race car....list goes on and on..

On M50/S52 its a well known the pump nut to come lose...and I know of 4 S52 broken cranks
that is because BMW went cheap on the damper design. The S52 damper is okay for 6500rpm
but its garbage after 7000rpm....A trick I do on S52 is I use M50 early none Vanos version which
has 5 times more elastomer in the damper vs S52. On a chap's S52 track engine who I implement
the M50 early damper he is revving at 7800-8000rpm. Crankshaft is still together so do the oil pump
nut.

Juuuuuuuust several years back at PRi show ATi announced that they have in house
engine dyno so that customers can sent their specific engine which will be put on a dyno
and test collect data and then make you specific one. Then yes ATi will have a custom damper
which is Scientifically engineered and designed for specific rpm and use. Stan, are you
ready to spent $10.000 or may be 20k with ATi ? for 0.01% gain better than Factory S54
damper ?


Don't establish an opinion by collecting data from chaps who may have Aftermarket Damper
and take that as a golden answer to your question..just because they say we never have problems
it mean nothing in my book.



I have a lot of respect to BHJ when we spoke 10+years ago very humble guy he told me
sent me the engine along with open check and it may turn to $30.000-50.000 test...After
deep technical discussion we had, even he concur my opinion on the fact that BMW already
did the R@D and the damper design is very good and its a ware out part. In time from heat
cycles the elastomer/durometer will change and that means that the damper will change the
range of frequencies by a bit.

What do you prefer $700 or whatever OEM price is or shredded aftermarket damper with
possible snout issues and bent crankshaft/run out ?

Read this article if needed re-read it twice. You will learn a lot. Note the specific Ford V8
engine crankshaft twist at its natural frequency analyzer and data!!! Stan were is that very
S54 test done by those who sell S54 suppose "upgraded" damper, you don't see it and
you never will !!!

http://harmonicdampers.com/index.php...id=4&chapter=0


I hope this will steer you in a right direction.


I personally have a better idea of how to make the S54 rev to 8500rpm on daily basis with
Warranty, but its not via upgraded custom damper !!!


Regards,
Anri.

[bigjae46]

Interesting...I think. One fact from reading that is I now have a headache...lol.

Seriously, thanks for posting. Will take some time to digest that info.

[R3VM3UP]

^This is pretty much dead on. Remember that the damper is designed to absorb energy. That energy is in the form of torsional vibrations that occur at certain frequency ranges as a result of engine design parameters such as cylinder configuration, stroke, reciprocating weight, crankshaft flex, etc etc. I don’t claim to have extensive knowledge on this but calculating the frequency is not trivial, and once calculated, really should be validated via an instrumented dyno test in which accelerometers are used to measure the frequency and magnitude of the vibrations. Once the frequencies are know the damper must be designed to be effective in that range, and also capable of holding together over the useful life of the engine. I’ve done engine dyno development for a major auto company (not BMW) and can confirm that this kind of testing is done for all production engines.

This is one of those areas where I think people see something advertised as a race or performance part and jump to the conclusion that it is better. Unless a company were to demonstrate that they have done a very thorough analysis and testing to develop a piece like this, it’s an area where I’d definitely want to stick to OE.

[Anri]

Bigjae,

Thanks for your reply, read it several times and digest,
if there are any questions put them here share with us.


I can go in more details but kind of too much information
at ones.....

Let me add, BMW did a trick and added this
to their entire package of designing hi revving platform.

The rev limiter on S54 is set via "Soft-Cut" this way when
people are doing stupid donuts will not increase internal
vibration further more as opposite of the older engines
when one is doing donuts sitting on the rev limiter
the engine combustion will hummer the internal
parts. Well if you see the M3 GTR Works car with P54
driven with anger by Bill Auberlen and Stuck the engine
has Hard-Cut like older engines, you can see this via
during race with camera inside..often at the track there
areas were it will be a loss to upshift and the driver has
to bounce the rev limiter say of 2-3 seconds and you
can hear during race...but but who cares in this case
this will have affect on long run not short...they care to
win a race with 45min or so.

A friend with E34M5 3.6 in his early 20s was going at
1am with friends to do donuts and he always shredded the
wood roof key and the damper will spin over the snout and
the engine shuts down

He kept changing woodroof key 2 times a month till
he ruined the crankshaft snout woodroof key way...and
then the crank was trash..

On my S38 I am running stand-alone system and I have
set my rev limiter via soft cut so that I don't ruin the keyway.

There is a lot of engineering gone behind what BMW have done
learned thru the years, and S54 is basically the best and last
version of their pinnacle of inline-6.

Sure rod ratio is not were it needs to be but seems like its
not so bad as people think...show me 1 inline-6 engine that
produces with bolt ons 122hp/l on 91 pump fuel with cams
intake box and exhaust system and has an engine speed
of 8000rpm !!! they just don't exist.


Regards,
Anri

[stash1]

Stan,

Slowly loosing my desire to reply...may be I am getting old and care less..to help
people but let me try to save your coin..and your New upcoming 380rwhp Dyno-Jet
S54 expensive build.



There is no scientific prove that the std S54 damper is designed only for narrow range
of frequency, period ! So I will disagree with this statement.

Those articles everybody reads on damper web pages says that factory has narrow
range is very General statement. BMW Motorsport GmbH has been messing and improving
the inline six for the passed 50 years+. BMW produced the Best Inline 6cylinder engines
in NA form( not the new shuff)... I have yet to see a better inline 6 than BMW.
If you study the S54 engine every single part has been designed with purpose and improved
from reducing weight off the engine block, reducing the crankshaft weight via the
counter weights composition etc. I can keep pointing for hours on every single part/area
how it has been designed for optimum weight and performance so do the damper.

S54 is designed from the factory with warranty to cover 7950+/- 50 rpm. BMW
with its long experience with inline-6 designed the S54 damper to work with
the hi revving engine concept. Remember between the street engine and the race
engine there is only 400-500rpm more! so the limits are nearly reached on the inline
6 revs with this damper design.

A crankshafts is one large spring or a torsion bar. Most BMW crankshaft thru the history
are all forged steel. BMW Motorsport was using on M1 M88/1 Pro-Car CrMo45 steel family.

Starting with E34M5 S38-B36 3.6 BMW moved to CrMo42 steel family which If memory serves
me well its around 10-12% stronger material than 45 so the crankshaft will have better
longevity.

Factory have the budget and the equipment to test the crankshaft twist. How this is
done is via Oscilloscope. When the engine is at the engine dyno they spend days testing and
testing and collecting data. Ones the data is collected then the damper is designed accordingly
and then re-tested.

10 years ago on my S38 engine I wanted to upgrade the damper and after massive
conversation with ATi engineer things did not end well...during our talk. Stan, all of these
companies have never done a test as what Factory did under their r@d. I mean nobody
have installed an S54 engine on engine dyno to test, let alone to create a damper for
specific engine and use, period !!!!! Ask Bruce form TX with E30M3 S54 track car how
he shredded the ATi damper on the second track day...and $600 went in the toilet.
A chap installed Fluid Damper and had nasty crank vibrations....A racer with
S52 US who shredded as well the ATI damper...on ST race car....list goes on and on..

On M50/S52 its a well known the pump nut to come lose...and I know of 4 S52 broken cranks
that is because BMW went cheap on the damper design. The S52 damper is okay for 6500rpm
but its garbage after 7000rpm....A trick I do on S52 is I use M50 early none Vanos version which
has 5 times more elastomer in the damper vs S52. On a chap's S52 track engine who I implement
the M50 early damper he is revving at 7800-8000rpm. Crankshaft is still together so do the oil pump
nut.

Juuuuuuuust several years back at PRi show ATi announced that they have in house
engine dyno so that customers can sent their specific engine which will be put on a dyno
and test collect data and then make you specific one. Then yes ATi will have a custom damper
which is Scientifically engineered and designed for specific rpm and use. Stan, are you
ready to spent $10.000 or may be 20k with ATi ? for 0.01% gain better than Factory S54
damper ?


Don't establish an opinion by collecting data from chaps who may have Aftermarket Damper
and take that as a golden answer to your question..just because they say we never have problems
it mean nothing in my book.



I have a lot of respect to BHJ when we spoke 10+years ago very humble guy he told me
sent me the engine along with open check and it may turn to $30.000-50.000 test...After
deep technical discussion we had, even he concur my opinion on the fact that BMW already
did the R@D and the damper design is very good and its a ware out part. In time from heat
cycles the elastomer/durometer will change and that means that the damper will change the
range of frequencies by a bit.

What do you prefer $700 or whatever OEM price is or shredded aftermarket damper with
possible snout issues and bent crankshaft/run out ?

Read this article if needed re-read it twice. You will learn a lot. Note the specific Ford V8
engine crankshaft twist at its natural frequency analyzer and data!!! Stan were is that very
S54 test done by those who sell S54 suppose "upgraded" damper, you don't see it and
you never will !!!

http://harmonicdampers.com/index.php...id=4&chapter=0


I hope this will steer you in a right direction.


I personally have a better idea of how to make the S54 rev to 8500rpm on daily basis with
Warranty, but its not via upgraded custom damper !!!


Regards,
Anri.

Hey Anri, thanx for the long winded reply, but I don’t care about the Fluid Damper or ATI balancer-lol I already know it’s junk. I was asking specifically about the Ross balancer, and if anyone has any direct interactions/info w/regards to it.

[Anri]

Ross balancer, and if anyone has any direct interactions/info w/regards to it.

Stan,

Ross Performance, ATi, Vibra-Tech, Fluid Damper, RattleTorsional
NONE of these companies have the engineering data
for S54 engine.

You say ATi is garbage...The company name it does
not matter...brother.

So basically you are searching an opinion from
somebody who tried Ross Damper...

Again you are collecting opinion from a local
chap not engineering proof that this is an upgrade
to the original design.

Let say you get 4 people saying oh never had
problem/s and you are the 5th one who have
problem then who do we blame, Stan ?


Regards,
Anri.

[stash1]

Stan,

Ross Performance, ATi, Vibra-Tech, Fluid Damper, RattleTorsional
NONE of these companies have the engineering data
for S54 engine.

You say ATi is garbage...The company name it does
not matter...brother.

So basically you are searching an opinion from
somebody who tried Ross Damper...

Again you are collecting opinion from a local
chap not engineering proof that this is an upgrade
to the original design.

Let say you get 4 people saying oh never had
problem/s and you are the 5th one who have
problem then who do we blame, Stan ?


Regards,
Anri.

Lol, well, ATI is actually local to me...they do make some very fine transmission products (mostly), but I would never run their S54 specific balancer in my car. Especially because VAC was involved in bringing it to market-lol. I actually had very good luck running fluid damper stuff for yrs, but know absotively zilch about their S54 specific products. I don't see the harm in asking though anyway!? I just remember seeing a post a couple of yrs ago about it, and though that it looked interesting? I wasn't sure if there were actually any end users out there though, and was just looking for direct feedback. If you get enough folks that have tried out the Ross, and their cars/engines are fine, then I think that you could draw at least some data from it. Likewise, if a couple ppl tried it out, and their shit blew up...well that would at least be data as well. I'm not looking to be another negative data point...hence the post.

[ethan]

Lol, well, ATI is actually local to me...they do make some very fine transmission products (mostly), but I would never run their S54 specific balancer in my car. Especially because VAC was involved in bringing it to market-lol. I actually had very good luck running fluid damper stuff for yrs, but know absotively zilch about their S54 specific products. I don't see the harm in asking though anyway!? I just remember seeing a post a couple of yrs ago about it, and though that it looked interesting? I wasn't sure if there were actually any end users out there though, and was just looking for direct feedback. If you get enough folks that have tried out the Ross, and their cars/engines are fine, then I think that you could draw at least some data from it. Likewise, if a couple ppl tried it out, and their shit blew up...well that would at least be data as well. I'm not looking to be another negative data point...hence the post.

Right - the ATI damper may or may not be properly engineered for its intended purpose, but it will be hard for us as a community to determine if that's the case by trial and error because nobody can keep a damn belt on the VAC pulley to begin with lol. Maybe next season I'll get a Ross Performance part and see if it at least actually fits right.