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    Mysterious Rattle After Major Mechanical Work

    Hello Group,

    I recently had major mechanical work done on my 120K miles M3. My car is a SMG to 6MT swap by the previous owner. I had the car recoded by EAS for the 6MT swap after I purchased it. The bell housing machining and other details were verified by the shop that did my clutch job and they confirmed everything was done correctly. I had no faults or strange noises before I dropped the car off. The shop that did my work specializes in Porsches and BMW's and builds track cars. They are a reputable shop from my research and had glowing recommendations. I am intentionally withholding the shop's name as they have worked diligently to identify the issue and I don't want to throw them under the bus in any way...


    In terms of mechanical work, I addressed "Big 3", new Vanos exhaust hub, new OEM clutch with dual pass flywheel, new guibo, engine mounts, suspension bushings, differential bushings, belts, plugs/packs....etc The goal was to address all the major points of failure and any deferred maintenance from the previous owners. I also had an Auto Solutions 20% SSK installed, along with a Magnaflow catback exhaust (don't judge me....I am a fan of the sound and it was an economical upgrade to my rusty/dusty OEM system).

    During my first test drive, I heard a rattling sound coming from behind the dashboard down by where the cigarette lighter is. As the RPM's in the car climbed up, the rattle got louder. The car did not make the rattling noises at similar RPM's in neutral. It only makes the sound when the car is in gear as I am accelerating. The rattling is faint and starts at 2500 rpms and gets progressively louder with 5000 rpms being the highest I've revved as I break in my new rod bearings. It sounds like a baseball card hitting a spoke on a wheel. I am hoping to record a video and upload it tomorrow.


    I took the car back to the shop and they kept it for an extra week to troubleshoot the issue. They came back with 2 possible theories for the source of the rattle after double-checking their work.


    Theory 1 - my catalytic converter may be on its way out. One of my cats has a honeycomb material that has may have come loose resulting in the material moving around inside the cat. They stuck a flathead screwdriver up the cat and could move the honeycomb material. I recently purchased OEM EU headers and Sect 1 as I assume my cats are due for failure and will need to be replaced. No error codes or CEL’s despite the dislodged honeycomb material at this time. No rattling noise when I rev the engine in neutral from 2500-5000 rpms


    Theory 2 - the rear output shaft bearing has gone bad or is on its way out. I have a small oil leak by the rear output shaft bearing seal. The shop removed the foam insulation and rubber boot on my shift knob to listen for the noise during a test drive and believe they hear the rattle down by the gearbox. I did some research and saw input & output shaft bearings are a point of failure for SMG to 6MT swaps.


    Has anyone experienced a similar rattling issue with the car in gear after replacing a clutch / flywheel? Any recommendations you have for things to verify / double-check would be much appreciated. I plan on taking the car to a transmission shop in a few weeks to get that checked out. I may also take the car to another shop that specializes in E46's to get a second option/fresh set of eyes on the issue.


    Thanks in advance for your input.


    EDIT:

    Thank you all for your input. I sincerely appreciate it. I took a couple videos tonight. I hope these are helpful.

    1. Cold start, kept it under 3000 RPM's while the car warmed up. No rattle whatsoever. The rattle begins as soon as the car reaches operating temperatures. Youtube defaulted to upload this as a short... apologies for the format.



    2. Car is warmed up and in 3rd gear. The sound is the loudest around 5000 RPM's. I kept it at 4K and dropped the phone down by my knee (adjacent to the cigarette lighter / gear box area I mentioned earlier).




    Some edits/revisions I want to make to my initial post. The rattle noise is the same with the car in gear, in gear with the clutch pushed in, and quieter when the car is rolling/revving in neutral but still very much present. I was cruising at 40 MPH in 3rd gear around 4000 and the noise was loud and clear. Pushed the clutch in while still in gear, same noise volume. Shifted the car out of gear into neutral with the clutch released and held the RPM's near 4000 while coasting - sound was present, but quieter.

    At this juncture, I believe it is the honeycomb in the headers. I am open to any recommendations or considerations you all may have. If the honeycomb in your headers failed and you heard this noise, please chime in!​
    Last edited by AWE46M3; 12-24-2022, 07:21 PM.
    '02 ///M3 Alpine White / Cinnamon 6MT

    #2
    Originally posted by AWE46M3 View Post
    Hello Group,

    I recently had major mechanical work done on my 120K miles M3. My car is a SMG to 6MT swap by the previous owner. I had the car recoded by EAS for the 6MT swap after I purchased it. The bell housing machining and other details were verified by the shop that did my clutch job and they confirmed everything was done correctly. I had no faults or strange noises before I dropped the car off. The shop that did my work specializes in Porsches and BMW's and builds track cars. They are a reputable shop from my research and had glowing recommendations. I am intentionally withholding the shop's name as they have worked diligently to identify the issue and I don't want to throw them under the bus in any way...


    In terms of mechanical work, I addressed "Big 3", new Vanos exhaust hub, new OEM clutch with dual pass flywheel, new guibo, engine mounts, suspension bushings, differential bushings, belts, plugs/packs....etc The goal was to address all the major points of failure and any deferred maintenance from the previous owners. I also had an Auto Solutions 20% SSK installed, along with a Magnaflow catback exhaust (don't judge me....I am a fan of the sound and it was an economical upgrade to my rusty/dusty OEM system).

    During my first test drive, I heard a rattling sound coming from behind the dashboard down by where the cigarette lighter is. As the RPM's in the car climbed up, the rattle got louder. The car did not make the rattling noises at similar RPM's in neutral. It only makes the sound when the car is in gear as I am accelerating. The rattling is faint and starts at 2500 rpms and gets progressively louder with 5000 rpms being the highest I've revved as I break in my new rod bearings. It sounds like a baseball card hitting a spoke on a wheel. I am hoping to record a video and upload it tomorrow.


    I took the car back to the shop and they kept it for an extra week to troubleshoot the issue. They came back with 2 possible theories for the source of the rattle after double-checking their work.


    Theory 1 - my catalytic converter may be on its way out. One of my cats has a honeycomb material that has may have come loose resulting in the material moving around inside the cat. They stuck a flathead screwdriver up the cat and could move the honeycomb material. I recently purchased OEM EU headers and Sect 1 as I assume my cats are due for failure and will need to be replaced. No error codes or CEL’s despite the dislodged honeycomb material at this time. No rattling noise when I rev the engine in neutral from 2500-5000 rpms


    Theory 2 - the rear output shaft bearing has gone bad or is on its way out. I have a small oil leak by the rear output shaft bearing seal. The shop removed the foam insulation and rubber boot on my shift knob to listen for the noise during a test drive and believe they hear the rattle down by the gearbox. I did some research and saw input & output shaft bearings are a point of failure for SMG to 6MT swaps.


    Has anyone experienced a similar rattling issue with the car in gear after replacing a clutch / flywheel? Any recommendations you have for things to verify / double-check would be much appreciated. I plan on taking the car to a transmission shop in a few weeks to get theory Forum fleshed out. I may also take the car to another shop that specializes in E46's to get a second option/fresh set of eyes on the issue.


    Thanks in advance for your input.
    Did you put in an OEM dual mass flywheel? Did you check the driveshaft center support?
    Instagram: @logicalconclusion

    Comment


      #3
      My first reaction is, it's something unrelated, and the timing is an annoying coincidence. Cars this age are always needing some dumb thing or another. If there are no codes, just ride it out and see.
      http://www.natehasslerphoto.com
      '99 M3, Hellrot/Sand Beige, slicktop
      '01 M3, Imola/black

      Comment


        #4
        If you drive the car while in gear and put a little bit of pressure on the clutch pedal, like push clutch pedal by only 1/8 of the pedal travel, is it still making the rattle noise?
        GT4 Composites

        2002 BMW E46 M3 TiAg 6mt Track car project
        2006 BMW E46 M3 Estoril blue 6mt Garage Queen
        2024 Toyota Land Cruiser Black DD/Tow Truck

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by AWE46M3 View Post
          I did some research and saw input & output shaft bearings are a point of failure for SMG to 6MT swaps.
          Output bearing has nothing to do with SMG to 6mt conversion, and none of these bearings can make the card/spokes noise.

          Nothing internal of tranny can cause this noise, especially the SMG conversion done/drove months before.
          Does the noise disappear or stay with car moving then shifted to neutral or press down the clutch?

          Comment


            #6
            It might be chatter from axial play between throwout bearing and clutch fork. Maybe the plastic pivot pin is worn out
            GT4 Composites

            2002 BMW E46 M3 TiAg 6mt Track car project
            2006 BMW E46 M3 Estoril blue 6mt Garage Queen
            2024 Toyota Land Cruiser Black DD/Tow Truck

            Comment


              #7
              It could be the lever after the SSK. Drive and grab the shifter and see if it goes away

              Comment


                #8
                As you drive it, lift up the e-brake about an inch and see if the noise goes away.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Nate047 View Post
                  My first reaction is, it's something unrelated, and the timing is an annoying coincidence. Cars this age are always needing some dumb thing or another. If there are no codes, just ride it out and see.
                  Haha - appreciate the perspective, Nate. I hope to keep the car forever and want to resolve this, especially if it has the potential to fail and take other things with it.

                  Originally posted by EthanolTurbo View Post

                  Did you put in an OEM dual mass flywheel? Did you check the driveshaft center support?
                  To my knowledge, it was an OEM dual mass but I can reach out to verify. It is not a chatter, to be clear. It is a rattle. I appreciate the center support recommendation. To my knowledge, my center support was fine. I'll have that checked out along with the orientation of the transmission brace. I've read that the brace can sometimes be installed in the wrong orientation which can result in vibrations.


                  Originally posted by Gt4 View Post
                  If you drive the car while in gear and put a little bit of pressure on the clutch pedal, like push clutch pedal by only 1/8 of the pedal travel, is it still making the rattle noise?
                  I am happy to give this a try. I can rev up to 4000K and push the clutch in to see what happens and report back. Should I stay on the gas during the clutch press (keep it at the same RPM's)?


                  Originally posted by maupineda View Post
                  It could be the lever after the SSK. Drive and grab the shifter and see if it goes away

                  The rattle is unaffected by grabbing the shifter during the rattling. I can ask them to reinstall my stock shifter to verify this, but I do not believe it is the shifter.


                  Originally posted by R1pilot View Post
                  As you drive it, lift up the e-brake about an inch and see if the noise goes away.
                  Would you mind elaborating on what lifting the e-brake could rule out or confirm? The e-brake is towards the rear of the car and the rattle is coming from the front of the car (behind ​my dashboard, down by the cigarette lighter).
                  '02 ///M3 Alpine White / Cinnamon 6MT

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by sapote View Post
                    Output bearing has nothing to do with SMG to 6mt conversion, and none of these bearings can make the card/spokes noise.

                    Nothing internal of tranny can cause this noise, especially the SMG conversion done/drove months before.
                    Does the noise disappear or stay with car moving then shifted to neutral or press down the clutch?
                    That's great to know. I appreciate your input. The more I research, the more I question the assessment that it's a bad output shaft bearing. Replacing transmission shaft bearings would require me to replace the entire transmission, which is a 7-9K job.

                    I am going to do some testing tonight and will confirm the rattle under load in gear, in gear with clutch pushed in, and in neutral all at the same RPM's
                    Last edited by AWE46M3; 12-24-2022, 06:21 PM.
                    '02 ///M3 Alpine White / Cinnamon 6MT

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thank you all for your input. I sincerely appreciate it. I took a couple videos tonight. I hope these are helpful.

                      1. Cold start, kept it under 3000 RPM's while the car warmed up. No rattle whatsoever. The rattle begins as soon as the car reaches operating temperatures. Youtube defaulted to upload this as a short... apologies for the format.



                      2. Car is warmed up and in 3rd gear. The sound is the loudest around 5000 RPM's. I kept it at 4K and dropped the phone down by my knee (adjacent to the cigarette lighter / gear box area I mentioned earlier).




                      Some edits/revisions I want to make to my initial post. The rattle noise is the same with the car in gear, in gear with the clutch pushed in, and quieter when the car is rolling/revving in neutral but still very much present. I was cruising at 40 MPH in 3rd gear around 4000 and the noise was loud and clear. Pushed the clutch in while still in gear, same noise volume. Shifted the car out of gear into neutral with the clutch released and held the RPM's near 4000 while coasting - sound was present, but quieter.

                      At this juncture, I believe it is the honeycomb in the headers. I am open to any recommendations or considerations you all may have. If the honeycomb in your headers failed and you heard this noise, please chime in!
                      Last edited by AWE46M3; 12-24-2022, 07:20 PM.
                      '02 ///M3 Alpine White / Cinnamon 6MT

                      Comment


                        #12
                        For some reason one time I swapped the rear wheels and I started getting a clicking noise by the shifter. It took me a few weeks to figure out.

                        The noise travels through either the cables or driveshaft and manifests itself as coming from the shifter area. At first I thought it was the giubo going bad.

                        Anyways, it ended up being a lugnut rubbing on the e-brake shoe metal. For some reason one of the wheels was either less thick or one of the lugnuts a tiny bit longer.

                        I am wondering if your rear wheels were removed at some point and you have the same issue. I have seen this happen on another e46 M3 from a member here as well.

                        Also, lifting the e-brake handle somehow moves the pads enough to make the noise go away.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by R1pilot View Post
                          For some reason one time I swapped the rear wheels and I started getting a clicking noise by the shifter. It took me a few weeks to figure out.

                          The noise travels through either the cables or driveshaft and manifests itself as coming from the shifter area. At first I thought it was the giubo going bad.

                          Anyways, it ended up being a lugnut rubbing on the e-brake shoe metal. For some reason one of the wheels was either less thick or one of the lugnuts a tiny bit longer.

                          I am wondering if your rear wheels were removed at some point and you have the same issue. I have seen this happen on another e46 M3 from a member here as well.

                          Also, lifting the e-brake handle somehow moves the pads enough to make the noise go away.


                          Thanks for the note! That’s really helpful. I had my subframe reinforced when I got the big 3 done so the entire rear end was down while that was being done.


                          I had my BBK installed shortly after the big 3 were done and did a lug conversion over to a stud kit so I’m no longer screwing into the wheel hub but onto the stud post. My e-brake could definitely use an adjustment - I have to crank that thing really tight to get a good bite.

                          What was the fix for you? Pulling the e brake up while traveling to clear whatever the catching point was?


                          '02 ///M3 Alpine White / Cinnamon 6MT

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I swapped the wheel bolts from side to side and it went away. There is probably one bolt that is just slightly longer to make contact when in the right position.

                            Pulling the ebrake up was just done by me to check whether the noise would go away. I have no idea how it came to me that it could be that. Dont drive with the ebrake pulled, just do it for a sec to see if the noise goes away.
                            Last edited by R1pilot; 12-24-2022, 09:14 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by AWE46M3 View Post
                              Thank you all for your input. I sincerely appreciate it. I took a couple videos tonight. I hope these are helpful.

                              1. Cold start, kept it under 3000 RPM's while the car warmed up. No rattle whatsoever. The rattle begins as soon as the car reaches operating temperatures. Youtube defaulted to upload this as a short... apologies for the format.



                              2. Car is warmed up and in 3rd gear. The sound is the loudest around 5000 RPM's. I kept it at 4K and dropped the phone down by my knee (adjacent to the cigarette lighter / gear box area I mentioned earlier).




                              Some edits/revisions I want to make to my initial post. The rattle noise is the same with the car in gear, in gear with the clutch pushed in, and quieter when the car is rolling/revving in neutral but still very much present. I was cruising at 40 MPH in 3rd gear around 4000 and the noise was loud and clear. Pushed the clutch in while still in gear, same noise volume. Shifted the car out of gear into neutral with the clutch released and held the RPM's near 4000 while coasting - sound was present, but quieter.

                              At this juncture, I believe it is the honeycomb in the headers. I am open to any recommendations or considerations you all may have. If the honeycomb in your headers failed and you heard this noise, please chime in!
                              1. During cold start and no noise: car moving or stopped?
                              2.Missing this test: cruising at 40mph, shift to neutral and drop to idle: noise or no?
                              3 more test: Jack up both rear wheels, in neutral engine off, manually spinning the wheel: noise?

                              Comment

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