AP Racing, Freaky Parts, 996, Cooling? School me on BBK to help pad consumption

[Pklauser]

What tires are you on in the video and what size? A couple of corners you turn in abruptly and you could use more of the track width which would also help solve your turn in. Other than that it looks like a very good lap. How's understeer? Seems like the rear of your car is super stable.

255/40R17 RS4s. I'll keep an eye out for that, thanks! Understeer is fine (I think). The rear can move around a little, and I am able to get some slip angle, but my confidence on Shenandoah isn't super high with all those walls really close by.

[Wernd]

I should've been more specific, I'm running Arc-8s, which are notoriously bad on clearance 😬. I hadn't realized BW's TA5R came in 17" though, good to know!

Unsure why I didn't think of this earlier, but on my technique potentially being a problem: I do have a video from just yesterday at Summit Point Shenandoah. If anyone sees anything I'm doing wrong, braking or otherwise, super open to feedback:

What tires are you on in the video and what size? A couple of corners you turn in abruptly and you could use more of the track width which would also help solve your turn in. Other than that it looks like a very good lap. How's understeer? Seems like the rear of your car is super stable.

[Pklauser]

It's a combination of pads and no anti rattle plate. The pads are extra thick (20mm) when new so that helps.. maybe the anti knock back springs help as well. Fully floating rotors can also make it noisy as well.

Appreciate that analysis. I don't run the rattle clips on the stockers since I have the brass guide bushings, and my pads do clack around, so I'm at least used to that 😅

[zivagolee]

That's awesome to hear. Do you think the NVH is more due to the caliper or the pads? My stock calipers are noisy if I put some aggressive pads in there.

EDIT: Oh yea, and the other fun thing worth mentioning: I'm currently rocking 17's ET35. Printed out the templates for the AP Racing and Megane calipers and it looks like I'll be able to clear if I run a 12mm spacer in the front, similar to what's required for the 996 kit. Unclear how that will effect my fender clearance yet though. I run 255s with near -3 degrees of front camber, so hopefully it'll work out. I'll do a test next time I'm swapping wheels around.

It's a combination of pads and no anti rattle plate. The pads are extra thick (20mm) when new so that helps.. maybe the anti knock back springs help as well. Fully floating rotors can also make it noisy as well.

I have my calipers behind Apex Arc8 18x9.5 ET35. I don't need a spacer in front but I add a tiny 3mm or one just to add little more space. NT01 275s with -3.5 degrees of front camber.

[Pklauser]

996 kit has plenty of clearance with 9.5 ET35 depending on the wheel. My BW TA16s have like an inch between the spokes and caliper at the closest point.

I should've been more specific, I'm running Arc-8s, which are notoriously bad on clearance 😬. I hadn't realized BW's TA5R came in 17" though, good to know!

Unsure why I didn't think of this earlier, but on my technique potentially being a problem: I do have a video from just yesterday at Summit Point Shenandoah. If anyone sees anything I'm doing wrong, braking or otherwise, super open to feedback:

[repoman89]

996 kit has plenty of clearance with 9.5 ET35 depending on the wheel. My BW TA16s have like an inch between the spokes and caliper at the closest point.

[Pklauser]

TBH I would still not hesitate to run the Megane calipers if I had a post 09/2002 car. It's a wash with benefit / drawback vs 996. Might get tapered pad wear, vs more shift in brake bias. I think either way it's gonna be an upgrade over stock calipers, and neither of those things are a big deal especially considering the FCP life hack. If you're paying full price for pads and rotors, that changes everything IMO. Obviously all the 345mm Brembo retrofit options are a compromise vs a proper BBK.

I will sell you my new unused Freaky Parts kit if you're interested. Still can't DM you for some reason but just LMK

I do have an MK60 car fwiw. Yea I'll need to think on this a little, I'll DM you. The FCP hack on the Megane calipers will push me towards DTC-60s instead of 70s, so I better be dropping temps more than 100F or I'll just be in the same relative spot temperature wise lol.

I run the Essex CP8350 front and CP5144 rears with DS1.11 pads all around. I can run 40 minute sessions at thill east without feeling like any fade and i'm a heavy braker
I fortunately found a great deal on the fronts so I couldn't pass it up -- they do have NVH so for a street car, it might be noisy for your tastes but I only take the car to the track now.

That's awesome to hear. Do you think the NVH is more due to the caliper or the pads? My stock calipers are noisy if I put some aggressive pads in there.

EDIT: Oh yea, and the other fun thing worth mentioning: I'm currently rocking 17's ET35. Printed out the templates for the AP Racing and Megane calipers and it looks like I'll be able to clear if I run a 12mm spacer in the front, similar to what's required for the 996 kit. Unclear how that will effect my fender clearance yet though. I run 255s with near -3 degrees of front camber, so hopefully it'll work out. I'll do a test next time I'm swapping wheels around.

[Nate047]

Yep, stock non-zcp calipers currently. Also good call out on the symmetric pistons in the Freaky Parts kit. I just saw some 996 front calipers sell on eBay for $360, I'm sure I'll regret missing that. My main concern with the 996 route is that by the time I buy the calipers, get them machined, adapters, rotors, pads, etc etc I'm a little over $2K, when the AP kit is right there at $3K. Granted the $2K 996 is front/rear, while the AP kit would just be front. I'd rather buy once and cry once than keep messing around with brakes on this car.

TBH I would still not hesitate to run the Megane calipers if I had a post 09/2002 car. It's a wash with benefit / drawback vs 996. Might get tapered pad wear, vs more shift in brake bias. I think either way it's gonna be an upgrade over stock calipers, and neither of those things are a big deal especially considering the FCP life hack. If you're paying full price for pads and rotors, that changes everything IMO. Obviously all the 345mm Brembo retrofit options are a compromise vs a proper BBK.

I will sell you my new unused Freaky Parts kit if you're interested. Still can't DM you for some reason but just LMK

[SQ13]

Square 265 section RS4. No ducts, just punched out the plastic blockers for airflow in the wheel well. IR thermometer says discs are ~600F in the paddock after a cool down lap. I’m certainly not the fastest but not the slowest driver either. Solid intermediate .. advanced drivers may have a different experience. But they also probably brake less

Nice, that sounds perfect to me! Now that I’m doing W2W endurance racing, DEs in my M3 aren’t going to be done with the goal of driving the car 10/10s and putting down the absolute fastest lap times possible. Just wanna safely enjoy the car and have fun.

[zivagolee]

I run the Essex CP8350 front and CP5144 rears with DS1.11 pads all around. I can run 40 minute sessions at thill east without feeling like any fade and i'm a heavy braker
I fortunately found a great deal on the fronts so I couldn't pass it up -- they do have NVH so for a street car, it might be noisy for your tastes but I only take the car to the track now.

[Pklauser]

I'm kind of circling the drain overthinking this same situation, I assume you have stock brake calipers currently?

Yep, stock non-zcp calipers currently. Also good call out on the symmetric pistons in the Freaky Parts kit. I just saw some 996 front calipers sell on eBay for $360, I'm sure I'll regret missing that. My main concern with the 996 route is that by the time I buy the calipers, get them machined, adapters, rotors, pads, etc etc I'm a little over $2K, when the AP kit is right there at $3K. Granted the $2K 996 is front/rear, while the AP kit would just be front. I'd rather buy once and cry once than keep messing around with brakes on this car.

I have an AP racing kit on my track car and they're pretty incredible. I went from replacing pads and rotors every other weekend to a set of rotors/pads lasting an entire season or maybe two! APs do not have rubber piston seals like basically every other manufacturer, so I wouldn't recommend them for a daily driver for all-weather motoring, but for a track car, they're incredible.

This is what I like to hear. How many events per season are we talking and what rotor size are you running?

Re piston seals: how critical are they for a car that has its brakes frequently inspected, cleaned, etc and isn't driven in road salt. My M3 is not my daily, but I don't want to be restricted in taking it on trips.

[repoman89]

What tires do you run and do you have brake ducts?

Square 265 section RS4. No ducts, just punched out the plastic blockers for airflow in the wheel well. IR thermometer says discs are ~600F in the paddock after a cool down lap. I’m certainly not the fastest but not the slowest driver either. Solid intermediate .. advanced drivers may have a different experience. But they also probably brake less

[SQ13]

The AP racing kit is the dream, but yeah it’s pricy. I’m happy with the 996 kit on my car and rotating between FCP OEM Textar pads for the street and DS1.11 pads for track. So far they’re lasting me 35-40ish sessions and the feel is excellent. Haven’t removed my backing plates yet but I’m going to this spring, and also wrap the ball joints as in this article https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/im...s-of-the-trade

What tires do you run and do you have brake ducts?

[lcrain]

IMO, the big advantage of a race inspired bbk is the pads are much bigger and thus will last longer. My experience is based on a car that is significantly lighter than stock (2970ish lbs with driver and 1/3 tank). I use a PFC front bbk with stock rear and a set of pfc 11 pads will last me an entire season on the front. They are just massive pads. Obviously a lighter car will go through fewer consumables, but the surface area/thickness of a bigger pad will offset some of the increase in cost. Anecdotally my car had proper brake ducts to backing plates which I have recently removed and I have no brake fade issues.

[liam821]

I have an AP racing kit on my track car and they're pretty incredible. I went from replacing pads and rotors every other weekend to a set of rotors/pads lasting an entire season or maybe two! APs do not have rubber piston seals like basically every other manufacturer, so I wouldn't recommend them for a daily driver for all-weather motoring, but for a track car, they're incredible.

One thing that really helps the AP is the pad thickness, they're 0.80" thick - there is so much meat on the pads which helps distribute heat and of course, they just last forever. I've also found their j-hook rotors to be top-notch, mine has 60 vanes for cooling.