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Suggestions for Dual-Purposed Coilovers for Tracking and Spirited Driving

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    #61
    Originally posted by IamFODI View Post
    All about perspective indeed.

    IMO, the key to understanding BC is to understand what real suspension development takes. If you poke around on the websites of Bilstein, KW, Öhlins, Koni, etc., you'll get a glimpse of how complicated it is. Shaker rigs, sophisticated CAD tools, extensive road and track testing, high-tier motorsports, TÜV approvals, the list goes on.

    There's a whole tier of coilovers that are based on little to none of that. It's basically just ballparking dimensions/spring rates/damping, running prototypes to make sure nothing’s hideously wrong, and shipping the kit. They might sponsor a small-time race/drift team here and there, and they'll do show cars all day, but you won't find them anywhere near F1, WEC, WRC, NASCAR, etc.

    BC is basically the king of that lower tier. Their advantage over other low-tier brands is that they manufacture a lot of those other brands’ kits, so they have a ton of scale and lots of ideas to draw from (steal?). But fundamentally, they're just a better version of the same thing.

    What difference does that make in practice? Most of the time, it's hard to tell unless you know what to feel for and are paying attention; BCs aren't so horrific that most people can tell right away in normal-ish driving. So, most people don't notice the deficiencies of a BC kit vs. something legit – or, if they do, they chalk it up to "coilovers are stiff" or the road being bad, or they just add “for the price” onto everything they say.

    However, if you get real seat time with cars on legit-brand coilovers, and if you pay attention, you’ll notice a significantly better mix of body control and compliance than you’d get with BC; usually better body control for the same level of compliance, sometimes advantages in both areas. No amount of knob twiddling on the BCs will fix that. “30 clicks of adjustable damping” really means “at least 29 incorrect damper settings.” All you can do is find the least-bad one.

    You might also notice that, as long as a legit kit has been set up within the designer’s guidelines, the car is very well behaved. You’d be hard pressed to unsettle it or make it respond unpredictably. This means the designer went to great lengths to find all possible edge cases and make the coilovers work at least reasonably in all of them.

    No such luck with BC and the other low-effort brands. When you read reviews of their stuff – not always informative because, again, most people don't know what to feel for – you’ll occasionally see people admit their car had some weird handling tendency or ride quality quirk that only shows up in certain situations (e.g. you have to be careful hitting bumps at high speed – actual feedback from a BC BR user here). Everything’s fine… until it isn’t. The lack of thorough development means those kinks don't get ironed out, and you might not know what they are until it’s too late. And, again, this isn’t something that can be tuned out. All the adjustability in the world doesn’t help when all the settings suck because the basic design is mediocre. It just has to be lived with. All of this is less of a problem for BC than for other low-effort brands, but “less of a problem” is nowhere near as good as “not a problem” – which is what you get with the big brands.

    Longevity is usually better for the big brands, too. Sometimes vastly better. Again, not something most people would likely notice on a test drive, but quite important and hard to do well.

    This is why BC can sell you a “fully adjustable” coilover kit for close to the same price as a minimally adjustable Bilstein PSS kit. It’s not hard to offer a ton of features on paper. What’s hard is to make a product that works well, offers reasonable tradeoffs, lasts a long time, and doesn’t tend to make the car do anything stupid.

    It’s also how BC can seem good in Honda world and crappy here. Both perspectives are reasonable. This is a niche community, with a critical mass of people who have both the discernment and the means to pursue fully engineered products. Such people certainly exist in Honda land, but they’re massively outnumbered and tend to move on to other platforms anyway, as you did – with obvious implications for the kinds of products that companies are willing to make. So, yes, BCs can be hard to take seriously when you know what to look for and have a chassis that's great to begin with – but they’re still better than most of the products available in many markets.

    FWIW.​
    Well I'm sold - on skipping the BCs anyway!

    Comment


      #62
      Originally posted by Nowhereman89 View Post

      Are you trying to sell your kit once the dampers arrive?
      That's the idea, or I'll run them, but I'm always looking to try something else on a vehicle I've owned over a decade.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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        #63
        Originally posted by cobra View Post

        Can't you just fix the valving? The basic shock architecture of the 1WNR isn't bad.
        & Tbone

        You guys are probably right. Car will be going on stands shortly and getting nut & bolted. We will see how it is after I make sure everything’s tight. I have a feeling the GC weight jackers are the ones making noise if spring is getting unloaded.

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          #64
          While I like the articulation of the weight jackers, it never made sense to me how to deal with noise and wear with the metal on metal ontact. Seems liek they should make a nylon or delrin sleeve similar to the miniscus in our joints. Or maybe you're supposed to cosntantly lube the tip that the perch hinges on?

          I like Ground control overall, but their stuff, understandably, doesn't seem to have comfort/noise in mind. My non articulating rear GC perch made a lot of noise. I moved to stiffer ohlins spring on their rear setup, with rubber isolation, and now there's not even a single rattle/jingle nothing in the way of noise or vibration, I'm really happy. Seems like the front GC plates, even street, make some noises where 2 pairs of TMS street plates (on 2 cars) have been dead quite for me for several years.
          DD: /// 2011.5 Jerez/bamboo E90 M3 · DCT · Slicktop · Instagram
          /// 2004 Silvergrey M3 · Coupe · 6spd · Slicktop · zero options
          More info: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...os-supersprint

          Comment


            #65
            Too bad you can’t get 65 mm spring perches for the TMS Street plates.
            Silver Track to Street Car Journal
            Interlagos Blue Street Car Journal

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by SQ13 View Post
              Too bad you can’t get 65 mm spring perches for the TMS Street plates.
              You can get 63.5mm which Ohlins works with. You get the 2.5" (63.5mm) TMS perches for their street plate, then use a 2.5" spring which will sit fine on bottom ohlins perch of 65mm. You're only talking a .75mm difference side to side.
              DD: /// 2011.5 Jerez/bamboo E90 M3 · DCT · Slicktop · Instagram
              /// 2004 Silvergrey M3 · Coupe · 6spd · Slicktop · zero options
              More info: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...os-supersprint

              Comment


                #67
                I still on't understand these GC Street plates with noise comments, mine are silent, they're very insulated with rubber bushings

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Tbonem3 View Post

                  You can get 63.5mm which Ohlins works with. You get the 2.5" (63.5mm) TMS perches for their street plate, then use a 2.5" spring which will sit fine on bottom ohlins perch of 65mm. You're only talking a .75mm difference side to side.
                  The 2.5” perches are NLA. Ship date keeps getting pushed back (Oct last time I checked), so I imagine no one will ever get their hands on them.
                  Silver Track to Street Car Journal
                  Interlagos Blue Street Car Journal

                  Comment


                    #69
                    😔.
                    DD: /// 2011.5 Jerez/bamboo E90 M3 · DCT · Slicktop · Instagram
                    /// 2004 Silvergrey M3 · Coupe · 6spd · Slicktop · zero options
                    More info: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...os-supersprint

                    Comment


                      #70
                      It can't be that hard to have some made. It's a very simple shape.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by SQ13 View Post

                        The 2.5” perches are NLA. Ship date keeps getting pushed back (Oct last time I checked), so I imagine no one will ever get their hands on them.
                        It's been well over a year since I was trying to get them, also kept getting pushed back months at a time. Give up lol.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by cobra View Post
                          It can't be that hard to have some made. It's a very simple shape.
                          I made a pair of perches for 2.25" springs which are currently in my car and work great.

                          I have MCS 1WNR with "low" rates (275/600) and they're silent and feel incredible.
                          '03.5 M3 SMG Coupe - Jet Black / Black

                          Comment


                            #73
                            as we approach holiday sales, I'm trying to prepare myself for my annual irrational purchase. the most rational of all the irrational possibilities for this year is probably refreshing my currently corroding suspension. there's a million suspension threads, and I've read most at one time or another, but I'll bump this one back up because there's much discussion of the Ohlins RTR setup and MCS 1WNR.

                            I'm trying to narrow down to what basically amounts to a very competent street setup. Yes, I know the default recommendation is the TCK SA or DA depending on budget. But in my mind I can't help but think a "better" damper might provide more comfort and control than the TCK options given appropriate spring rates. I'm not trying to throw a track setup at a street car and then complain about harshness. Recognizing my lack of intimate knowledge, am I off base in thinking a "higher end" damper will produce a better result for the street if the correct spring rates are used? Is the MCS 1WNR actually any "better" than the TCK Koni, Ohlins DFV, etc?

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by tnord View Post
                              . . . . am I off base in thinking a "higher end" damper will produce a better result for the street if the correct spring rates are used? Is the MCS 1WNR actually any "better" than the TCK Koni, Ohlins DFV, etc?
                              Yes and Yes (depending upon your requirements).

                              Both the MCS and Ohlins R&T are head and shoulders better than the TCK Koni offering.

                              MCS dampers have a unique blow-off valve that manage high speed compression hits where shaft speed velocities can create significant increases in compression damping forces. These blow off values are entirely unique to MCS and minimize a compression strike minimizing a large loss of grip in street applications and providing comfortable road manners. MCS will allow you to run higher spring rates and still provide a compliant ride thanks to their unique blow-off valve technology. This is their secret sauce IMO.

                              Ohlins DFV technology gives the same characteristics on rebound as it does on compression. This is accomplished by giving the damper fluid a consistent path of flow in both directions at high or low piston speeds. The result is better ride comfort that matches OEM strut performance, but in an adjustable coil-over design.

                              The Koni dampers is a basic monotube design that has been around for years. It's a proven design, but the technology lags behind companies like MCS and Ohlins. I think it is a compromised design that doesn't stand out above the rest pack on either street or track.

                              Bottom line, both MCS and Ohlins R&T will be a better damper with improved ride qualities over a TCK Koni setup, however the cost for these dampers is higher. MCS will give you the highest degree of flexibility when it comes to spring rates as their valving can usually accommodate a range of spring rates before needing to change out the valving. Ohlins is more of a "set it and forget it" design, where OEM ride comfort with height adjustability is prioritized.

                              From a dual-purpose car perspective (i.e. street car / track car) the MSC is the better damper IMO. Ohlins makes a dedicated track setup, but the included Swift spring have very high rates that are too high for comfortable street driving. I guess that's why they label it "dedicated track".

                              Ohlins R&T = High quality OEM comfort in a coil-over design.
                              MCS = Greater spring rate flexibility, better suited for dual-purpose cars.
                              TCK Koni = Proven "budget" option that has been around forever.



                              Comment


                                #75
                                I'm not going to play pretend like this car is going to see much, if any, track duty. I guess it would be nice if that day were to come, the dampers could handle a step or two up in spring rates. But really, I know what I want this car to feel like and it's more street than track, if I think about it in my brain I can feel it in my hands.

                                I don't really plan on messing with the setup once it's done, so the wide range of rates the MCS can handle isn't necessarily a positive in my use case. If the MCS can maintain better contact with the road while minding it's manners than the Ohlins, I'll pay to play. The MCS + bars also fits neatly into my overly simplistic belief that anything worth doing on this car will cost you $5k.

                                Suspension? $5k
                                Exhaust? 5k
                                Airbox and tuning? $5k
                                Brakes? $5k

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