THE M3 IS GETTING THE ANRI BUILD TREATMENT - Blown headgasket to build thread

[sapote]

[UPDATE - F***ing Head gasket is blown cyl 5-6, see page 2 for the full report.

I didn't expect that the gasket blown between 5 and 6. Then why engine didn't knock (detonate or rattle can noise) at above 2000 rpm?

[ChapterM3]

ChapterM3 this is very accurate.

I've just gone through this with my 190,000km (120,000 miles) S54. The bottom end of these things are extremely stout and the rotating assembly is the least of our concerns.

Pull the engine, and get the block and head sent out to the machine shop to match and be on your way! You can get this done in a day with friends at a local DIY shop in the LA area.

The only while in there I would consider are upgrades to the heads and valve adjustments, ah! If you haven't done VANOS and rod bearings, it's a good time as well.

Head work can do a lot of good if you plan on adding CSL airbox, headers and cams down the road. New valve springs, rockers, valve seals are a good idea ... that I didn't even bother with outside of new rocker arms.

Best of success in the journey. It'll make it all the more fun when it's back on the road.

Thank you for your input! I appreciate it - So to summarize what you're saying here, and questions:
- Pull the motor, do bottom and top at the same time (Do cylinders and rings as well?)
- I've done rod bearings 25k ago, and Vanos full Dr. Vanos kit 20k ago
- I don't plan on doing anything like a CSL airbox, or headers or cams. If the cats go on the stock headers in there I'll get another set of stock ones, and if I pull the motor perhaps I'll do it at the same time.I want the motor to be OEM and OEM+ where it makes sense to do it. So valve springs, (Valves?), rockers and valve seals for the head all make sense to me.
- Do you know of a DIY garage in LA that would be able to have the car for as much time as I need to get the head done?

A big question since reading your post is how could I tell if the cylinders are OK before pulling the head? Perhaps have the shop look into the spark plug holes before putting them back in? (Car is still apart until they get back to it on Tuesday)

Thanks in advance for your responses!

Johnathan,

You should be aware of 2 factors from the many but in the S54 deck area


Design: S54 bore grew a step further up to 87mm compared to S50B32 Euro
at 86.4mm. This is one of the reasons BMW Motorsport was forced to use multi layer
gasket in order to seal the reduced bore spacing. A std S50-B32 gasket would
not work well with reduced bore spacing.


Cast iron block aluminum head creates undesirable phenomenal called Electrolysis.
and I am sure your coolant was not replaced on time to keep this down to minimal
and at (155k) I am sure you have some damage on the surface. It's just how much and
were it is ? if its not near the water jackets, oiling, bore spacing surface then you are
fine.

When you have the cylinder gasket burned in this way you already have torched the
block surface with flames cross flowing(hopefully its not much) . Every inline 6 engine
it does not matter the brand they are never ever flat all across. There is acceptable
number were if you pass that it is critical to deck the block on S54. Older S50B32
S14 S38 the gasket is not multi layer and it is very forgiving and can take a lot of deck
imperfections but not with S54s.

At last never forget taking the engine apart is nothing special, its all bolts and nuts
out but the Machining is the most important part to have long lasting engine platform.

Whoever you chose to work on your S54 make sure you are aware of technically
the entire process. Things like "we will fix it don't worry" be aware of...people
like cobra and others are terrified to have others working on their car and that is
when I meant these M cars need special attention to detail.

BMW M engines/owners we are all very picky and the work must be done with passion,
understanding how it works, experience, etc, not just the following shop car number...


Regards,
Anri

Thank you again for your input on this - Do you have any suggestions on where to read about this entire process as you mentioned? I want to understand it but not finding many articles or videos explaining it - if you have some suggestions I would appreciate it! Thank you!

[Anri]

if the car is going to start blowing gaskets every season I'd start to get concerned. Side note - I drive the car about 5k a year
It's a good point you raise Anri for sure. I'll DM you about quotes on this work for the car. Thank you for your replies!

Johnathan,

You should be aware of 2 factors from the many but in the S54 deck area

blowing gaskets every season

Design: S54 bore grew a step further up to 87mm compared to S50B32 Euro
at 86.4mm. This is one of the reasons BMW Motorsport was forced to use multi layer
gasket in order to seal the reduced bore spacing. A std S50-B32 gasket would
not work well with reduced bore spacing.


Cast iron block aluminum head creates undesirable phenomenal called Electrolysis.
and I am sure your coolant was not replaced on time to keep this down to minimal
and at (155k) I am sure you have some damage on the surface. It's just how much and
were it is ? if its not near the water jackets, oiling, bore spacing surface then you are
fine.

When you have the cylinder gasket burned in this way you already have torched the
block surface with flames cross flowing(hopefully its not much) . Every inline 6 engine
it does not matter the brand they are never ever flat all across. There is acceptable
number were if you pass that it is critical to deck the block on S54. Older S50B32
S14 S38 the gasket is not multi layer and it is very forgiving and can take a lot of deck
imperfections but not with S54s.

At last never forget taking the engine apart is nothing special, its all bolts and nuts
out but the Machining is the most important part to have long lasting engine platform.

Whoever you chose to work on your S54 make sure you are aware of technically
the entire process. Things like "we will fix it don't worry" be aware of...people
like cobra and others are terrified to have others working on their car and that is
when I meant these M cars need special attention to detail.

BMW M engines/owners we are all very picky and the work must be done with passion,
understanding how it works, experience, etc, not just the following shop car number...


Regards,
Anri

[Epoustouflant]

Wow $6k sounds crazy

The S54 blocks are tanks. Unless the head gasket has been blown for a long time, the block is likely fine. Head might be a pitted, but a skim should take care of it. Agreed that you should be able to get away with just doing the head gasket.

Just drive up to norcal and we'll have it swapped out in a weekend

ChapterM3 this is very accurate.

I've just gone through this with my 190,000km (120,000 miles) S54. The bottom end of these things are extremely stout and the rotating assembly is the least of our concerns.

Pull the engine, and get the block and head sent out to the machine shop to match and be on your way! You can get this done in a day with friends at a local DIY shop in the LA area.

The only while in there I would consider are upgrades to the heads and valve adjustments, ah! If you haven't done VANOS and rod bearings, it's a good time as well.

Head work can do a lot of good if you plan on adding CSL airbox, headers and cams down the road. New valve springs, rockers, valve seals are a good idea ... that I didn't even bother with outside of new rocker arms.

Best of success in the journey. It'll make it all the more fun when it's back on the road.

[EthanolTurbo]

All S54s need the head gasket done eventually... mine went out at about 227k. Replaced it and sent it with no issues.

[ChapterM3]

Nah no shop up here. Just a good chunk of people who might spend a weekend helping someone swap a head gasket. Agreed with anri that it won't be as good as a factory engine if you just swap the head gasket, but also how much do you want to get out of it?

Are a couple head gasket swaps worth less than a full engine rebuild? Just food for thought.

Oh got it! That sounds like it could be fun as I would love to somehow be a part of the process. So I'm guessing you guys have done a few up there and have the space for it as well? And what are we talking for a few gaskets over what amount of time? Over years? And what kind of oil consumption would you say as well? The reason I ask is that this motor as is has never lost oil between oil changes for as long as I've had it, and I love that about the car. If that changes a bit, I can understand, but also if the car is going to start blowing gaskets every season I'd start to get concerned. Side note - I drive the car about 5k a year

Jonathan,

Hopefully the bore spacing is not torched down..Say it is
then engine must come out scenario...

Regards,
Anri

It's a good point you raise Anri for sure. I'll DM you about quotes on this work for the car. Thank you for your replies!

[Anri]

Jonathan,

Hopefully the bore spacing is not torched down..Say it is
then engine must come out scenario...

Regards,
Anri

[heinzboehmer]

Thank you for the comment which also brought me back down to earth a bit - Do you have a shop up in Norcal? And do you think the car would even make it in this condition? Last thing I'd want to do is blow something up further!

Nah no shop up here. Just a good chunk of people who might spend a weekend helping someone swap a head gasket. Agreed with anri that it won't be as good as a factory engine if you just swap the head gasket, but also how much do you want to get out of it?

Are a couple head gasket swaps worth less than a full engine rebuild? Just food for thought.

[ChapterM3]

Replacing head gaskets in the UK is a normal thing. The Elring full gasket kit is 250, so if you have a friend who has successfully done a VANOS rebuild, doing the headgasket is not that much harder. The only wear items to replace are the valve stem seals (stick with OE BMW here) and to check the followers for flat spots. A machine shop can easily install a new set of seals and skim the head. No need to go crazy full rebuild.

If you want to take it somewhere and have it done professionally, check with Kaiv in SD or Anri in LA.

Thank you for your reply and input - certainly brought me back down to earth a bit. If I could do this on my own as you mentioned with such parts, and with someone who knows what they're doing and has done it before I'd certainly entertain that route. What makes me nervous is taking off the cams, etc. as that's something I've not done before and don't have the space to do it and leave it for extended periods of time. Let's see what happens - I wonder how much parts in total would cost for this - my search for shops and parts has begun and will continue for a little while for sure

Wow $6k sounds crazy

The S54 blocks are tanks. Unless the head gasket has been blown for a long time, the block is likely fine. Head might be a pitted, but a skim should take care of it. Agreed that you should be able to get away with just doing the head gasket.

Just drive up to norcal and we'll have it swapped out in a weekend

Thank you for the comment which also brought me back down to earth a bit - Do you have a shop up in Norcal? And do you think the car would even make it in this condition? Last thing I'd want to do is blow something up further!

Johnathan,

If may I suggest few points you should consider.

- E85 is knife with 2 blades....way to long to explain why..
don't use that for your intended purpose. For Race engine
is fine..but not in your case were Saturday at 7am morning
we go to Angelest-Crest to have fun.

- In cases like yours were the engine ran say 60k or 100k+
and the gasket fails just like yours, coming practice
is take the head off, perform head work put it back together but
there is very big risk...! Why ? The piston rings already
have enough carbon build around the ring land and
every mile it goes by the rings are getting harder and
harder to rotate..

When one takes the head off and then instal it back on
the top of bore is never ever in the same shape as it
was from before. Even following the same factory torque sequence.
That said you are risking the rings not taking the new bore shape and
resulting oil consumption.

New or the existing pistons must have fresh/hone in order
the rings to sit and seal. Also your pistons ring land must be
clean so that it will rotate easier. Take a look my post and you
will see some areas you might be interest.

If this is E36 325i none vanos with 400k miles and the task is just to
put the car back on the road and the head work cost more
money than the entire car sure..who cares....

E46M3/S54 is special engine/car and everything should be done properly..
thus the reason why you see E46M3s in absolute beat up condition
trashed cars with very poor maintenance ended being parted
out. I have 2 customers with E46M3 one is Laguna Seca with 220k
and the car is like New, the other is 170k and in the same mint
condition.

Do you have the same scenario as this one ?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqws_XPgrp7/
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr3sL6SpXQd/?img_index=1

Regards,
Anri

Thank you for this detailed reply Anri, I really appreciate it - I don't know if mine is as audible as the one that you posted about, but the shop did tell me it was audible to hear air going between 5 and 6. I agree with you on both of your points - the S54 is a special motor and I definitely want to make sure this gets done right and running back 100%

[Anri]

Johnathan,

If may I suggest few points you should consider.

- E85 is knife with 2 blades....way to long to explain why..
don't use that for your intended purpose. For Race engine
is fine..but not in your case were Saturday at 7am morning
we go to Angelest-Crest to have fun.

- In cases like yours were the engine ran say 60k or 100k+
and the gasket fails just like yours, common practice
is take the head off, perform head work put it back together but
there is very big risk...! Why ? The piston rings already
have enough carbon build around the ring land and
every mile it goes by the rings are getting harder and
harder to rotate..

When one takes the head off and then instal it back on
the top of bore is never ever in the same shape as it
was from before. Even following the same factory torque sequence.
That said you are risking the rings not taking the new bore shape and
resulting oil consumption.

New or the existing piston rings must have fresh/hone in order
the rings to sit and seal. Also your piston/s ring land must be
clean so that it will rotate easier. Take a look my post and you
will see some areas you might be interest.

If this is E36 325i none vanos with 400k miles and the task is just to
put the car back on the road and the head work cost more
money than the entire car sure..who cares....

E46M3/S54 is special engine/car and everything should be done properly..
thus the reason why you see E46M3s in absolute beat up condition
trashed cars with very poor maintenance ended being parted
out. I have 2 customers with E46M3 one is Laguna Seca with 220k
and the car is like New, the other is 170k and in the same mint
condition.

Do you have the same scenario as this one ?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cqws_XPgrp7/
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr3sL6SpXQd/?img_index=1

Regards,
Anri

[heinzboehmer]

Wow $6k sounds crazy

The S54 blocks are tanks. Unless the head gasket has been blown for a long time, the block is likely fine. Head might be a pitted, but a skim should take care of it. Agreed that you should be able to get away with just doing the head gasket.

Just drive up to norcal and we'll have it swapped out in a weekend

[Slideways]

Replacing head gaskets in the UK is a normal thing. The Elring full gasket kit is 250, so if you have a friend who has successfully done a VANOS rebuild, doing the headgasket is not that much harder. The only wear items to replace are the valve stem seals (stick with OE BMW here) and to check the followers for flat spots. A machine shop can easily install a new set of seals and skim the head. No need to go crazy full rebuild.

If you want to take it somewhere and have it done professionally, check with Kaiv in SD or Anri in LA.

[ChapterM3]

Thank you all for pushing me to get the leak-down test, I sincerely appreciate the pushback. I was completely wrong to think this ended with new plugs – The results are back, and they're not good. I'm back looking for guidance on this, as my head is spinning still and I'm trying to process what is going on.

Short summary: The head gasket is suspected of failure between cylinders 5 and 6.
Wait, Jonathan, didn't you originally post saying that there were misfires in 3, 4 and 5? Yes, exactly.

Here's the detailed summary I got on the phone from the shop today –

• Two compression tests were run, and both yielded the same results
  • Cyl 1-4 - 170 PSI
  • Cyl 5-6 - 120 PSI
• Two leak-down tests were run, and both yielded the same results
  • Cyl 1-4 - 30%
  • Cyl 5-6 - 70% (and air could be audibly heard passing from one cylinder to another)

They're quoting me around $6k to get the head gasket, clean the head at a machine shop, etc.

Here's my debate about doing this without pulling the engine –

• It's not in the cards to throw this kind of money at the car right now. It will sit in my garage until I can do this right.
• There's no chance for me to do this on my own as I don't have the space, tools, or knowledge/experience to do this level of work. I could assist with someone else but beyond doing other regular maintenance things like VCG, oil changes, etc. And unfortunately, this isn't VWVortex from 2009 where my friends and I were all sitting around waiting for someone to buy parts to then experiment on their 1.8t - this DIY is not gonna happen without a miracle
• $6k to do the head gasket, clean the head, etc. but still reinstalling 155k parts doesn't make sense to me. I would think to do it right and refresh everything. Of course, this is a question of cost
• If the top half of the motor is brand new, but the cylinders and bottom half have 155k on them, that makes no sense, wouldn't it make sense to pull the motor and just go over the whole thing? I know it's most likely twice as much money but I can't imagine doing just the top half and feeling good about that.

Questions to you all reading this –

• Does it make sense to only do the HG and leave the bottom half alone with 155k and 170psi in cylinders 1-4?
• Where would you bring the car in the Los Angeles area (or in the surrounding states) to get this work done?
• What other options do I have that I might have listed here or am not seeing?
• What kind of $$ are we talking for a total OEM rebuild of the S54? I just want to drive this thing again and enjoy it in the canyons, no track time, etc.
• I would love to keep this car forever, I absolutely love it, and have put a lot of work into it. The big 3 are done, as well as a long list of other items. But everything has its limits, do I dare consider selling it?
• I can't make sense of why the car would report 3,4 and 5 misfires, but 5 and 6 have the main issue. If someone knows the logic behind this I would appreciate the insight as I just can't understand this

Thank you all so much in advance for you support - seriously, this absolutely sucks and I'm devastated, but I'm glad I know and the motor isn't totally fried on me.

Also attached, which again, I find so bizarre with this information now - is the Blackstone lab report from the last 10k. I called them when they sent it and spoke with the guy who analyzed the oil. He said there were zero indications of a head gasket failure or premature wear in the oil in the last 10k. Maybe I caught it that quickly? I would think that the oil report would have shown it way sooner than audibly hearing a faint misfire, but I'm clearly wrong. Just thought to mention.

---

For future reference –

Specs on car –

• 155k
• e85 was run in the car for about 15k under previous ownership
• Plugs and coils were done 20k ago
• Injectors done 10k ago

How we got here –

• Audible misfires at startup, intermittently would come and go, about 100 miles ago, but no codes or CEL. Happened at cold OR hot, but unique misfire sounds. Almost like a rally car staging, if you've ever heard what that sounds like, sometimes sputtering but not in the typical misfire tone
• Cylinders 4 and 5 threw a CEL on me, which prompted me to bring it in to a shop immediately
• At the shop cylinders 3,4, and 5 threw codes
• Shop test drove it and told me the car felt solid, and recommended checking the plugs
• Shop said plugs were fouled, replaced with OEM ones I had, drove again, said it was solid
• Next morning cold start threw the same 3,4, and 5 cylinder codes
• Compression test and leak down performed twice (as the shop couldn't believe the numbers coming back considering how the car drove)
• Called me with the results

Beyond this diagnosis, the has and is performing as the following -

• Little misfires at startup
• No indication from Blackstone Labs reports in the last 10k of HG failure (as they would have detected metals, coolant, remnants of coolant, in the oil)
• No loss of coolant
• No loss of oil AT ALL between oil changes
• No loss in power or significant drop in power
• No marbles in a can sound, or anything close to the typical understanding of a bad HG
• 0 performance change - Pulls strong as usual, no hesitation, solid performing car
• To my knowledge the car has never been tracked or overheated

[sapote]

Got it - So essentially you're saying that you think the HG could be bad, fouled the plugs prematurely, and could then foul these new plugs? And again, thank you for your responses - I appreciate the opinion!

EDIT: I'm having the leak down done - Thank you guys for being so vocal about it!

I don't think bad HG will cause fouled plugs unless you see a cloud of blue smoke at the tail pipes. I think the low compression or bad timing can cause misfire which then causes fouled plugs.

[ChapterM3]

I think the problem will be back after the plugs fouled again. Modern engines don’t foul plugs for no reason.

Got it - So essentially you're saying that you think the HG could be bad, fouled the plugs prematurely, and could then foul these new plugs? And again, thank you for your responses - I appreciate the opinion!

EDIT: I'm having the leak down done - Thank you guys for being so vocal about it!