E46, E36, E9x Discussion with Camissa, DTS, and Larry Webster from Haggerty

[oceansize]

Timestamped to 25:59

Interesting discussion on the the mid 90s to early 2010s M cars. Somewhat surprisingly they are most kind to the e36 with respect to how "right" the car was at launch. They are not as kind, as the discussion goes along, to the general e46 m3 or e9x m3 with respect to anything other than the competition models and obviously the CSL (they obviously love the NA v8 in the e9x). Regardless, they seem to appreciate the cars we all so dearly love. One of my favorite quotes, the e9x M3 was the best M5 ever made. Said the US market e46 m3 sound like "junk". LoL.

[cornerbalanced]

Never quite understood the extreme love towards US spec E36 M3s, perhaps it’s a generational thing. I’ve owned three US spec E36 M3s, and never was able to fall in love. Calling them “peak M3” is laughable. Dynamically they’re fine…but they leave a lot to be desired. Put 95% of people blindfolded into a E36 328i and E36 M3 back to back and they won’t be able to tell you which is which. The same cannot be said for any other generation M3.

Agreed with Jason re: E90 M3 being the best iteration of an M5. Couldn’t understand owning an E39 M5 when E90 M3s do everything the E39 does, but better! Also
worth mentioning I’ve owned both—numerous E90s at that. The S65 is truly one of the best engines BMW has ever put into a production car.

[WestBankM4]

The S65 is truly one of the best engines BMW has ever put into a production car.

That is debatable as an opinion. The reason I opted for the S55 in the F8x was because the S65 was truly lackluster during my test drive. You had to wring the motor out to the wits end to feel it actually come alive, otherwise it was mediocre at best driving around town.

It has worse gas mileage, less torque, less horsepower than the S55 I6 TwinTurbo, considering it's a V8 I would have liked to see better torque numbers. That made choosing the F8x much easier.

[maw1124]

Very interesting discussion indeed... particularly about early additions "becoming great" with the competition package in the E46... I've heard the overly stiff / non compliant comments from the beginning, but I was also dead set on a later car... off the top of my head I can't really think of many differences between early and late cars (computer, SMG, LED tails, anything else?)

maw

EDIT... I knew there was other stuff... amazing what you forget... "Bi-Xenon headlights became available in late 2001, while an in-dash CD player was added as standard. Starting in early 2002, a front strut bar became standard equipment, and buyers could option things like 19-inch forged alloy wheels and brushed aluminum interior trim. LED taillights, a bluetooth phone interface, and two new colors were added in 2003, while the steering rack was revised in late 2004." I deemed all of that stuff to be mission critical

[cornerbalanced]

That is debatable as an opinion. The reason I opted for the S55 in the F8x was because the S65 was truly lackluster during my test drive. You had to wring the motor out to the wits end to feel it actually come alive, otherwise it was mediocre at best driving around town.

It has worse gas mileage, less torque, less horsepower than the S55 I6 TwinTurbo, considering it's a V8 I would have liked to see better torque numbers. That made choosing the F8x much easier.

I love motorsports oriented engines, I think it just comes down to preference. The S54 is similar in that you really need to wring it out for it to come alive. Naturally aspirated, lower displacement, higher compression, and ITBs is a recipe for success in my opinion. Of course if you value gas mileage, torque and power there are much better options out there. The S55 feels lifeless to me (let's not even talk about the sound.) I leased an F80 CS when they first came out and quickly got rid of it, again just comes down to what you're looking for in a driving experience.

[cornerbalanced]

Very interesting discussion indeed... particularly about early additions "becoming great" with the competition package in the E46... I've heard the overly stiff / non compliant comments from the beginning, but I was also dead set on a later car... off the top of my head I can't really think of many differences between early and late cars (computer, SMG, LED tails, anything else?)

maw

MK60 ABS was a big one, one of the primary reasons I sought out an LCI car. As someone who owns a competition package E46, they put far too much weight on the driving experience of ZCP cars vs. pre-LCI cars. Stock for stock they handle relatively similar in my opinion, where a good suspension setup and tires really makes them both truly worthwhile to drive.

[Nate047]

Never quite understood the extreme love towards US spec E36 M3s, perhaps it’s a generational thing. I’ve owned three US spec E36 M3s, and never was able to fall in love. Calling them “peak M3” is laughable. Dynamically they’re fine…but they leave a lot to be desired. Put 95% of people blindfolded into a E36 328i and E36 M3 back to back and they won’t be able to tell you which is which. The same cannot be said for any other generation M3.

It's the nostalgia more so than the actual drive. TBH I just like to go out and look at the car sometimes. That part is definitely subjective. But in all fairness, they actually are really great to drive, you just have to manage expectations and keep in mind how old the E36 actually is.

[01SG]

It's the nostalgia more so than the actual drive. TBH I just like to go out and look at the car sometimes. That part is definitely subjective. But in all fairness, they actually are really great to drive, you just have to manage expectations and keep in mind how old the E36 actually is.

Nostalgia? I beg to differ. The e36 is simply more fun on a public road, stock to stock, unless going in a straight line is your thing. More neutral, better throttle feel, better steering feel, better transmission. It feels so much smaller than even the e46. More connected to the road. Especially a 95 with no traction control, square wheels-yes you can modify the later ones, but still.

The main thing I miss while driving it is the s54 intake sound.

Not to mention there is beauty in simplicity. The e36 has none of the major problems of the other cars. The cheap interior aside, it's a tank.

Nostalgia is nice too though. It was a different era. The e36 still dominated in actual motorsport too, whereas the e46 was dead on arrival.

[Tbonem3]

Opinions are like butt holes

[maw1124]

It's hard to disagree that the E46M should have come in a sedan though. And maybe I'm crazy but I prefer it to the 996/997. It just seems like a better car all around to me, especially for the money.

maw

[Lavatoad]

I owned stock e36 and e46 m3s at the same time for around a year. My thoughts at the time were... I preferred the e36 size, steering, exhaust note, and throttle response. Preferred the e46 power, induction sound, and interior build quality. .

It's been 16 years since those first cars. Now, having owned several e36 and e46 m3s... My "forever car" is my current e46, and my track car is a gutted e36. Would love to try an e90 m3, but hard to for me to justify where it would sit.

[tlow98]

It's hard to disagree that the E46M should have come in a sedan though. And maybe I'm crazy but I prefer it to the 996/997. It just seems like a better car all around to me, especially for the money.

maw

agree. That’s why I have my sedan. Overall, I agree with the statement of practicality toward the M cars. That’s what makes them so damn drivable.

[Arith2]

You know, it's not that the E46 M3 does anything the absolute best, it's the fact that it's a relatively cheap bang for your buck BMW M car that looks good, was extremely iconic in many ways, and versatile do perform almost any task you want. 2jz swap, LS swap, drag car, track car, grocery getter, faster than a mustang or WRX, drift car, show car, and you can drive across the country on whim if you want. There is also the up side of this forum. Without this community, the E46 M3 would not be what it is today. Think of all the support for it from this forum alone. It's probably more than all other M cars combined. The car doesn't get all the credit.

[Chas3n]

Nostalgia? I beg to differ. The e36 is simply more fun on a public road, stock to stock, unless going in a straight line is your thing. More neutral, better throttle feel, better steering feel, better transmission. It feels so much smaller than even the e46. More connected to the road. Especially a 95 with no traction control, square wheels-yes you can modify the later ones, but still.

The main thing I miss while driving it is the s54 intake sound.

Not to mention there is beauty in simplicity. The e36 has none of the major problems of the other cars. The cheap interior aside, it's a tank.

Nostalgia is nice too though. It was a different era. The e36 still dominated in actual motorsport too, whereas the e46 was dead on arrival.

Interesting take, most of it is subjective so I won't attempt to dispute your opinion, however, the Motorsport was not became the e46 was a worse car. It was because the rules changed to end unfair dominance, which the e46 briefly enjoyed and would have continued to enjoy had rules (NOT just the v8 engine) been enforced to water down the performance of the e46.

E36's are great IMO, but you're always left wanting to hop into the more refined, faster, better sounding and looking e46.


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[Obioban]

Very interesting discussion indeed... particularly about early additions "becoming great" with the competition package in the E46... I've heard the overly stiff / non compliant comments from the beginning, but I was also dead set on a later car... off the top of my head I can't really think of many differences between early and late cars (computer, SMG, LED tails, anything else?)

maw

EDIT... I knew there was other stuff... amazing what you forget... "Bi-Xenon headlights became available in late 2001, while an in-dash CD player was added as standard. Starting in early 2002, a front strut bar became standard equipment, and buyers could option things like 19-inch forged alloy wheels and brushed aluminum interior trim. LED taillights, a bluetooth phone interface, and two new colors were added in 2003, while the steering rack was revised in late 2004." I deemed all of that stuff to be mission critical

They are conflating "comp pack" with later cars.

All cars, from 2004 on, got updated (higher, softer) suspension. Inherently, that included all comp pack cars (as they didn't make them before that time frame), but it wasn't a comp pack feature.

Similarly, MK60 is just an absurd (IMO) improvement in the later cars vs the earlier ones. All comp packs came with (for the same reason as above), but also not a comp pack feature.