E46, E36, E9x Discussion with Camissa, DTS, and Larry Webster from Haggerty

[Obioban]

Not to mention there is beauty in simplicity. The e36 has none of the major problems of the other cars. The cheap interior aside, it's a tank.

I like the e36 a lot (have had 3, including an S50B32 car), but I don't think that's correct at all. I'd actually argue it's the lowest build quality of all the M3 generations. Certainly it has the most chassis failure points.

Front shock tower failure
rear shock tower failure
RTAB pocket failure
front sways rip out
rear sways rip out
cooling system is a 60,000 mile wear item
diff clutches wear out in <50,000 miles
5th gear lean
headlights are broken from new in terms of light output
cluster backlights go out
radio resistor failures
switch panel backlights go out
glove box sag
interior disintegrates in place
oil pump nut
seat headrests collapsing (vadars)
subframe (not mount point) failures

[maw1124]

They are conflating "comp pack" with later cars.

All cars, from 2004 on, got updated (higher, softer) suspension. Inherently, that included all comp pack cars (as they didn't make them before that time frame), but it wasn't a comp pack feature.

Similarly, MK60 is just an absurd (IMO) improvement in the later cars vs the earlier ones. All comp packs came with (for the same reason as above), but also not a comp pack feature.

Agreed. Thanks Obioban that makes sense.

What I thought I remembered was that the only change from '05 to '06 (last year) was Comp Pack, which (1) didn't come in a convertible, and (2) I wanted the forged, polished wheel. So that let me open my search to an '05 because at the time (late 2010) finding a final year, TiAG/Imola Convertible, with those wheels, and under 60k miles for under $25k, was proving a bit difficult.

I don't recall knowing about the different steering rack in the Comp Pack cars, but since they weren't convertible I can't say I paid them much attention.

maw

[siamkazi]

You know, it's not that the E46 M3 does anything the absolute best, it's the fact that it's a relatively cheap bang for your buck BMW M car that looks good, was extremely iconic in many ways, and versatile do perform almost any task you want. 2jz swap, LS swap, drag car, track car, grocery getter, faster than a mustang or WRX, drift car, show car, and you can drive across the country on whim if you want. There is also the up side of this forum. Without this community, the E46 M3 would not be what it is today. Think of all the support for it from this forum alone. It's probably more than all other M cars combined. The car doesn't get all the credit.

agreed ^

I bought mine in 2019, the amount of friends and contacts I've gained due to the love of the platform and brand has been sincerely life changing (for the better). Also, thanks to the shared and common knowledge, the cost of ownership has been amazing.

[01SG]

Interesting take, most of it is subjective so I won't attempt to dispute your opinion, however, the Motorsport was not became the e46 was a worse car. It was because the rules changed to end unfair dominance, which the e46 briefly enjoyed and would have continued to enjoy had rules (NOT just the v8 engine) been enforced to water down the performance of the e46.

E36's are great IMO, but you're always left wanting to hop into the more refined, faster, better sounding and looking e46.


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That's right-didn't they restrict the air intake or something on the s54 to the same level as the Porsche even though they had a 3.4 or 3.6?

Some of those other points are not subjective though, besides what constitutes fun to drive. I suppose you could enjoy the lifeless feeling of drive by wire over cable throttle, but the latter definitely provides a superior connection to the car. The e36 is smaller, lighter, and more raw. The e46 transmission is often maligned (though I like it, albeit not quite as much as the ZF) and the steering was never praised as highly.

No doubt the e46 is more refined and faster, but I think it's a wash on looks. They're both immaculate designs in M form. I do think the non-M e36 has aged much worse than the standard e46. The bumpers make all the difference.

[01SG]

I like the e36 a lot (have had 3, including an S50B32 car), but I don't think that's correct at all. I'd actually argue it's the lowest build quality of all the M3 generations. Certainly it has the most chassis failure points.

Front shock tower failure
rear shock tower failure
RTAB pocket failure
front sways rip out
rear sways rip out
cooling system is a 60,000 mile wear item
diff clutches wear out in <50,000 miles
5th gear lean
headlights are broken from new in terms of light output
cluster backlights go out
radio resistor failures
switch panel backlights go out
glove box sag
interior disintegrates in place
oil pump nut
seat headrests collapsing (vadars)
subframe (not mount point) failures

Granted on the electrical and interior issues. I have heard so much about the fifth gear lean but never experienced it myself. However, are not many of those other structural issues also prevalent on the e46? I have the same reinforcements for shock and strut towers on both cars. I would not get aftermarket sways without reinforcing the tabs on either. The RTAB pocket failure is highly unlikely and probably a result of extreme track use. The cooling system problems are mainly down to the water pump, which a Stewart rectifies.

I've had more miles on e36s, and none of them have given me a $3500 bill to weld up the RACP. The e46 is probably more reliable once all the big ticket items are addressed, but that's a lot of work, time, and money.

[Obioban]

Granted on the electrical and interior issues. I have heard so much about the fifth gear lean but never experienced it myself. However, are not many of those other structural issues also prevalent on the e46? I have the same reinforcements for shock and strut towers on both cars. I would not get aftermarket sways without reinforcing the tabs on either. The RTAB pocket failure is highly unlikely and probably a result of extreme track use. The cooling system problems are mainly down to the water pump, which a Stewart rectifies.

I've had more miles on e36s, and none of them have given me a $3500 bill to weld up the RACP. The e46 is probably more reliable once all the big ticket items are addressed, but that's a lot of work, time, and money.

I actually don't think the e46 suffers those structural issues, at least with stock parts. As in, if you put in crapily designed camber plates that don't spread the load (like the stock hats do), then yes, you need reinforcement. e36 will fail them with stock parts, and street use (which I've done :P).

I think most of the people think about those issues at all on the e46 is from e36 having those issues. As in, how many people use rear RSM reinforcement plates on the e46? Feels like everyone that does suspension. And yet... I've never seen a street or track e46 fail a rear shock tower.

The e46 absolutely suffers the subframe mount point failure, which is a LARGE single issue (especially if not addressed before failure). But, other than that it's pretty solid. Even the front sway is only an issue if you combine soft springs with a stiff sway, and use that setup on track with something grippier than street tires.

I've seen some street only e36s with the RTAB pocket failure, but it may have been a rust problem (not that that's really an excuse). 5th gear lean I've experience in the trans that the e36M uses, but not actually in an e36M.

This is starting to get in the weeds. I just don't think that, generally, build quality is a strength of the e36 among the M3 line. I feel like it's upside are feeling small and light on the road, so you can place it and take a line within your lane, being a good amount of speed that you can actually push it on a back road without jail if you get caught, and have good feed back through all inputs (vs e46, the throttle is particularly better).

[Chas3n]

That's right-didn't they restrict the air intake or something on the s54 to the same level as the Porsche even though they had a 3.4 or 3.6?

Some of those other points are not subjective though, besides what constitutes fun to drive. I suppose you could enjoy the lifeless feeling of drive by wire over cable throttle, but the latter definitely provides a superior connection to the car. The e36 is smaller, lighter, and more raw. The e46 transmission is often maligned (though I like it, albeit not quite as much as the ZF) and the steering was never praised as highly.

No doubt the e46 is more refined and faster, but I think it's a wash on looks. They're both immaculate designs in M form. I do think the non-M e36 has aged much worse than the standard e46. The bumpers make all the difference.

If you consider the e46 m3 a lifeless feeling, then it starts to distort all your opinions. Im not going to say the 46m is the greatest drivers car ever, but it's very high up there, and no respectable journalist has ever called its driving dynamic as life less.

The e36's weight feels better (I'll go one further and say I'd ONLY consider the sedan due to the rear end feeing significantly more planted/feel) however it also feels like I'm in a tin can.. the s2000 and Miata, both revered for their dynamic feel, more so than the 36m, also feel like tin cans.

At 35 years of age, I no longer want to sacrifice the refinement for “raw” and if I did, the 36m is still far down on that list of “raw” drivers cars.


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[maw1124]

...however it also feels like I'm in a tin can.. the s2000 and Miata, both revered for their dynamic feel, more so than the 36m, also feel like tin cans.

At 35 years of age, I no longer want to sacrifice the refinement for “raw” and if I did, the 36m is still far down on that list of “raw” drivers cars.

That part! My E46M is as close to "tin can" as I'm gonna get. I'm way too old for that, and I think you put it perfectly. The only time my car felt like a tin can was when I drove it back to back with my buddy's E93M. Suddenly my car felt way more "raw" and light in the arse, even though it's a heavy arse vert. That E93M was weird because it sounded and drove like an M3 but it didn't feel like one.

maw

[repoman89]

At 35 years of age, I no longer want to sacrifice the refinement for “raw”

Haha, I feel this at 34. I’ve briefly owned an ND2 and then an NA Miata over the past couple years and while both were fun and excellent drivers cars, I couldn’t wait to be rid of them. I’ll haul around the extra 800 lbs of E46 any day, and for that matter most of the time I’d haul around another 800 lbs on top of that to just take my E39 M5.

[Chas3n]

That part! My E46M is as close to "tin can" as I'm gonna get. I'm way too old for that, and I think you put it perfectly. The only time my car felt like a tin can was when I drove it back to back with my buddy's E93M. Suddenly my car felt way more "raw" and light in the arse, even though it's a heavy arse vert. That E93M was weird because it sounded and drove like an M3 but it didn't feel like one.

maw

The refinement was certainly there in the e39m5 (owned a 01) however I agree, the car looked, and sounded like an M3, and somewhat drove like one, but that box steering never translated as nicely. Many say it here, and I have to agree, that the e90 M3 is a better e39 M5 replacement. I recently have sold my w211 E55 to make room for an e90 m3 as I'm hoping it'll scratch the itch of a refined/modern drivers car. Enough room to throw a car seat in the back but despite its weight, still a nimble feeling chassis.

Having also just sold my wife's S2000 (never loved it, sorry) I can attest that the 36m feels numb compared to it. I don't want to bring up “modifying”
But I feel at this point, we need to, as with some investment into the 46, you can restore much of the feel lost between the 36 and it, and have the best of both worlds.


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[PSUEng]

Haha, I feel this at 34. I’ve briefly owned an ND2 and then an NA Miata over the past couple years and while both were fun and excellent drivers cars, I couldn’t wait to be rid of them. I’ll haul around the extra 800 lbs of E46 any day, and for that matter most of the time I’d haul around another 800 lbs on top of that to just take my E39 M5.

At 43 I bought an STI--talk about hard ride; the M3 was a Caddy in comparison. 2.5 yrs later (now) STI is gone, and the M3 on stock suspension (at least to me) is just right but, next shock replacement I may do something different. I've resolved that I like this car enough to put the money and care into it, I'm in for the long term--until it's crashed, or I'm off the planet, or prices get so ridiculously high I cash out. And after 16 yrs of ownership, I'm really starting to appreciate how great--at leas to me--the car really is. And as stated, this forum is the best--a huge positive to owning this car!

[simonnim]

Personally I think E36M is right under the G80 for ugliest M3's. The US spec engine is blasphemous when you KNOW the euro spec got a better version for the SAME car. Don't get me started on the interior. Any interior maintenance you are guaranteed to break multiple things no matter how careful you are.

The S65 engine suffers from main bearings issues apparently on the higher mile ones, which is surprising since the S85 (I've owned and tracked mines for over 60k miles) didn't have these issues with the main bearing. I've always enjoyed how the E46M but will probably evacuate like other members say if the prices climb and I can jump into a softer ride.

For now, I'll have to sacrifice some back durability while I still can.

[EthanolTurbo]

Haha, I feel this at 34. I’ve briefly owned an ND2 and then an NA Miata over the past couple years and while both were fun and excellent drivers cars, I couldn’t wait to be rid of them. I’ll haul around the extra 800 lbs of E46 any day, and for that matter most of the time I’d haul around another 800 lbs on top of that to just take my E39 M5.

The E39 M5 is only 400 lbs more than a stock E46 M3. It does have 80+ wtq on average acrosd the powerband as well. It sure hides the weight well.

[maw1124]

The refinement was certainly there in the e39m5 (owned a 01) however I agree, the car looked, and sounded like an M3, and somewhat drove like one, but that box steering never translated as nicely. Many say it here, and I have to agree, that the e90 M3 is a better e39 M5 replacement. I recently have sold my w211 E55 to make room for an e90 m3 as I'm hoping it'll scratch the itch of a refined/modern drivers car. Enough room to throw a car seat in the back but despite its weight, still a nimble feeling chassis.

I think you'll regret selling that E55k, but maybe not. When I went looking for a W211 55k, I came back with a W220 55k, which I'll simply never sell. I no longer need to throw anyone or anything in those back seats, which are an area code away, and yet I keep it as my personal limo. Kids grew up and went to college, moved grandma to FL, and so now it's just me (and wifey, who doesn't like "old cars").

An E90M "might" beat that W211, but it'll never beat a W220 (which I suspect is too big for anyone here's use anyway). Happy Hunting though. If you can find an E90M 6MT, it's the only car that I ever thought about selling the S55 for. Seriously.

For the rest of us, buy it while you can ... https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9Qx...ampaign=button

maw

[repoman89]

The E39 M5 is only 400 lbs more than a stock E46 M3. It does have 80+ wtq on average acrosd the powerband as well. It sure hides the weight well.

Yeah I overestimated the E39 weight a bit but my E46 is down a couple hundred pounds from typical stock weight. Otherwise it’d be right around 1000 from a soft top ND2.