E46, E36, E9x Discussion with Camissa, DTS, and Larry Webster from Haggerty

[Chas3n]

I think you'll regret selling that E55k, but maybe not. When I went looking for a W211 55k, I came back with a W220 55k, which I'll simply never sell. I no longer need to throw anyone or anything in those back seats, which are an area code away, and yet I keep it as my personal limo. Kids grew up and went to college, moved grandma to FL, and so now it's just me (and wifey, who doesn't like "old cars").

An E90M "might" beat that W211, but it'll never beat a W220 (which I suspect is too big for anyone here's use anyway). Happy Hunting though. If you can find an E90M 6MT, it's the only car that I ever thought about selling the S55 for. Seriously.

For the rest of us, buy it while you can ... https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9Qx...ampaign=button

maw

Don't say that! I'm already missing the 211.55.. it was a fantastic car, but I no longer drive into work, and as such only put 1000 miles on it in the last year. (2 long road trips basically) The wife wanted an e90 before I'm allowed to find a 991gt3 or 360, so I had to make the sacrifice. First world problems, car wife problems.

Call me crazy, but I think I want the DCT now over the 6spd for the s65. If the car were just for myself I'd go with a 6spd coupe, but I need it family friendly.. aka a grandparent or relative needs to drive it, they can hop in and not worry about a clutch pedal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[bigjae46]

The E90 M3 is not really an E39 M5. I see it marking the departure from mild to more wild. The E46 has more subtle cues. The E36 M3 looks like a plane Jane E36.

I love the E9X chassis…it has more of an oversteer nature to it. The E46 is great but it prefers to be driven nice and neat. I’ve talked about it but I can’t get rid of the E46.

Some day I’ll have E46 and E92 track cars.

[repoman89]

The E90 M3 is not really an E39 M5. I see it marking the departure from mild to more wild. The E46 has more subtle cues. The E36 M3 looks like a plane Jane E36.

Totally agreed. I didn’t even cross shop them. Maybe I would have if I didn’t already have my E46.

E39 for me for looks and presence alone. It’s my daily around town and highway cruiser muscle car, so I don’t want it to egg me on like a 8000+RPM NA engine does.

[maw1124]

Don't say that! I'm already missing the 211.55.. it was a fantastic car, but I no longer drive into work, and as such only put 1000 miles on it in the last year. (2 long road trips basically) The wife wanted an e90 before I'm allowed to find a 991gt3 or 360, so I had to make the sacrifice. First world problems, car wife problems.

Call me crazy, but I think I want the DCT now over the 6spd for the s65. If the car were just for myself I'd go with a 6spd coupe, but I need it family friendly.. aka a grandparent or relative needs to drive it, they can hop in and not worry about a clutch pedal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

And this is why SMG for me. When I'm not around, the kids take it and use the paddles or swap it into A mode. What do I care? I'm not around. The car can take it. For me, it's paddles all day long. It's a 4th car at a second home, so it's basically for use by anyone who's there. That level of flexibility is actually what sold this car over the E36M for me, where it was manual 2foot driving or trash. This one... yeah this one fit the bill. And the extra power and modernity didn't hurt either.

maw

[01SG]

I actually don't think the e46 suffers those structural issues, at least with stock parts. As in, if you put in crapily designed camber plates that don't spread the load (like the stock hats do), then yes, you need reinforcement. e36 will fail them with stock parts, and street use (which I've done :P).

I think most of the people think about those issues at all on the e46 is from e36 having those issues. As in, how many people use rear RSM reinforcement plates on the e46? Feels like everyone that does suspension. And yet... I've never seen a street or track e46 fail a rear shock tower.

The e46 absolutely suffers the subframe mount point failure, which is a LARGE single issue (especially if not addressed before failure). But, other than that it's pretty solid. Even the front sway is only an issue if you combine soft springs with a stiff sway, and use that setup on track with something grippier than street tires.

I've seen some street only e36s with the RTAB pocket failure, but it may have been a rust problem (not that that's really an excuse). 5th gear lean I've experience in the trans that the e36M uses, but not actually in an e36M.

This is starting to get in the weeds. I just don't think that, generally, build quality is a strength of the e36 among the M3 line. I feel like it's upside are feeling small and light on the road, so you can place it and take a line within your lane, being a good amount of speed that you can actually push it on a back road without jail if you get caught, and have good feed back through all inputs (vs e46, the throttle is particularly better).

That about sums it up, agreed.

[01SG]

If you consider the e46 m3 a lifeless feeling, then it starts to distort all your opinions. Im not going to say the 46m is the greatest drivers car ever, but it's very high up there, and no respectable journalist has ever called its driving dynamic as life less.

The e36's weight feels better (I'll go one further and say I'd ONLY consider the sedan due to the rear end feeing significantly more planted/feel) however it also feels like I'm in a tin can.. the s2000 and Miata, both revered for their dynamic feel, more so than the 36m, also feel like tin cans.

At 35 years of age, I no longer want to sacrifice the refinement for “raw” and if I did, the 36m is still far down on that list of “raw” drivers cars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I meant the lifeless comment in regard to the drive by wire throttle only. I love both cars, I'm just not surprised by people who prefer the e36 and think it deserves all the praise it can get. They both have strengths.

[stephen]

Personally I think E36M is right under the G80 for ugliest M3's.

Crazy talk when the F82 and G82 exist. The melted soap big coupe design is not great.

[simonnim]

Crazy talk when the F82 and G82 exist. The melted soap big coupe design is not great.

Only M3's not m2 or m4

[Estoril]

I don't look to others to tell me what my priorities are or what I want - or to validate my past choices.

[oceansize]

I don't look to others to tell me what my priorities are or what I want - or to validate my past choices.

No man is an island with respect to thought or action. What I've come to appreciate about long form podcasts is that many of my subjective, and what I may think of as objective, opinions are questioned. I can brush off other's opinions and ideas or I can weigh my own thoughts against theirs. I've learned to prefer the later. This is a hobby, but it is good to hear differing thoughts from fellow forum members and "experts" even if its mostly subjective topics.

[LSB4Me]

My (somewhat OT; somewhat obvious) $0.02: drive as many "enthusiast" cars as you can. If your friend has something interesting, ask to take it around the block. Even if only as a passenger. For those of us fortunate enough to live in areas/cities where car payments grow on trees, you can meet your heroes and then consider yourself lucky that you don't own them. See: 550 Maranello, GT2RS, SF90, 991+ GT3.

I don't entirely agree with all of the hair-splitting comments made in the podcast above or the posts in this thread but, in my experience, M cars are great starting points. They tend to need more help (read: mods) to make them formidable. Stock-for-stock, 911s are tough to beat in an "overall" comparison. We are plagued by cost-cutting measures (both in design/engineering and component production) that are understandable for a company like BMW that is producing a "performance" car in high numbers. As such, the "issues" that we deal with in the e46M3 are understandable, relatively minor in the grand scheme (see engine-out service for belts; walnut blasting for carbon build-up) and well worth the one-time cost of entry.

As to which M is the truest, rawest and bestest, welcome to the age-old 911 debate.

[maw1124]

As to which M is the truest, rawest and bestest, welcome to the age-old 911 debate.

That HAS to be the 993!!

Jokes.

maw

[simonnim]

No man is an island with respect to thought or action. What I've come to appreciate about long form podcasts is that many of my subjective, and what I may think of as objective, opinions are questioned. I can brush off other's opinions and ideas or I can weigh my own thoughts against theirs. I've learned to prefer the later. This is a hobby, but it is good to hear differing thoughts from fellow forum members and "experts" even if its mostly subjective topics.

I agree. Everyone is subject to influence from others even if they don't want to admit it. Where do you think you learned how to drive? Regardless I enjoy the opinions of others which offers me the option to look deeper to try and observe what they see.

[Estoril]

The same Haggerty that just nominated the 1997 Plymouth Prowler as one of the Top 10 Classic Cars To Buy This Year.

[oceansize]

The same Haggerty that just nominated the 1997 Plymouth Prowler as one of the Top 10 Classic Cars To Buy This Year.

This article explains what they do and how they do it since you didn't listen to the podcast. In a nutshell, they have a lot of data, they see trends, the trend might be short term so this is like flipping stocks or houses, get in get out. I know this might be a surprise but people like different stuff, even stuff you and I dislike.

https://news.yahoo.com/plymouth-prowler-finally-entering-era-172144129.html