Do camber plates eliminate the advantages of CSL kingpins?

[D-O]

Greetings.

I am considering CSL kingpins for their built in increase in caster and camber. I am also mostly committed to a set of coilovers that will require camber plates. Will the camber plates make the CSL kingpins redundant?

[terra]

I think the advantage to the CSL king pins are supposed to be that you get that extra camber without changing steering axle inclination (unlike camber plates I believe)

What that means in terms of driving dynamics, no clue

[Slideways]

IMO, simple answer is yes.

Don't forget, you have to buy two front wheel bearing hub assemblies if you decide to go with CSL spindles. It is less than half the cost to just get camber plates and a much easier install.

[jvit27]

IMO, simple answer is yes.

Don't forget, you have to buy two front wheel bearing hub assemblies if you decide to go with CSL spindles. It is less than half the cost to just get camber plates and a much easier install.

Not exactly true, you can press your old ones off and reuse. Just need a new axle nut.

[Slideways]

Not exactly true, you can press your old ones off and reuse. Just need a new axle nut.

More often than not, they get pulled off and damage the bearing in the process. The inner race gets stuck on the spindle and you have to resort to getting a smaller puller to get it off. I have never seen original bearings come off in one piece.

Also, took a quick look at the instructions:

Important!

Bearing must not be reused after it has been detached!

Detaching bearing inner race:

Attach special tools 33 4 406 and 33 4 401 to bearing inner race and tension until special tool can still just be turned.

Detach bearing inner race with special tool 33 4 402 .

[jvit27]

More often than not, they get pulled off and damage the bearing in the process. The inner race gets stuck on the spindle and you have to resort to getting a smaller puller to get it off. I have never seen original bearings come off in one piece.

Fair, maybe I was lucky.. but I have a press. And car is low(er) mileage.

[D-O]

New hub/bearing assemblies are part of the plan either way.

[everythingS54]

The CSL kingpins add 1 degree of negative camber. It does not correct or change caster. For a caster adjustment camber plates should be used.

[Bry5on]

The advantages are particularly negated if your car is lowered. From the factory, your roll center is just above the ground, approximately an inch. Lowering the car lowers your front roll center below the ground (bad). Adding negative camber from camber plates raises your roll center (also bad on its own, but I’d argue not as bad). Adding negative camber from front CSL kingpins does not move your roll center.

For best steering feel, you want your roll center at or just above the ground.

For the most natural/least body roll, you want your roll center above the ground, closer to your CG. If your roll center is below ground, you will need stiffer springs and sway bars to keep your car from rolling in corners than you would otherwise.

You may also lose inner tire clearance with the CSL parts, which is important if you want to run wider than an 8.5” wheel and still preserve good steering feel. You want 5-15mm of scrub radius for good steering feel/characteristics, and going to a wheel offset 40mm or lower basically kills this as you drop offset.

For most people here, with lowered cars, you’re likely better off from a handling perspective with stock kingpins, as it’ll get you a more ideal roll center, allow you to run a slightly softer front sway bar, and increase your tire clearance. The CSL kingpins appear to be specifically optimized for stock ride height.

Front suspension geometry here: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...627#post216627

[nyc951]

Are the CSL kingpins available to us in the US?

[D-O]

Are the CSL kingpins available to us in the US?

Yes indeed.

[D-O]

Sounds like I can save myself about $600.

[bigjae46]

For a track car, get Vorshlag non-M camber plates with the M3 king pins. It moves the range of camber into the sweet spot for a track car -3.0 to -5.0 and the caster can be adjusted back to stock.