S54 Build Decisions: Turbo vs. High-Revving NA – Seeking Experienced Opinions

[JeremyJames]

You asked a question thats been asked an uncountable amount of times, in the most active E46 M3 forum on the planet? There will be some strong opinions. Even in the dick measuring posts there are lessons to be learned. Try not to add to the fire with school yard type commentary.

Go balls to the wall NA build. see what 13.5:1 compression can do, max cams, and vanos delete. This car has been done for 25 years... very rarely anything new happens, and its usually incremental.

There are parts in EU that are not available here, ie. P54 heads, and other unobtanium hiding in places. M3Cutters might be another source for info and advice.

PS: I second what 9kracing has said about Anri regarding builds

I performed a few searches before creating the thread here, there is a lot of information out there and I was more seeking personal experience and perhaps some guidence. I do not frequently monitor the forums on random subjects, so I really wouldn't have a clue that this has been discussed before. I created a thread asking questions that were not that wild or animated - truly inquisitive. I do not appreciate the sarcastic comments for no reason at all. Just because that particular member browses the forum so much that he "yet again" must read the same questions - I am sure that happens often.... Either way, added memes and sarcasm brings absolutely 0% of value to the topic. Agree?

I appreciate your input as well.

[01SG]

You asked a question thats been asked an uncountable amount of times, in the most active E46 M3 forum on the planet? There will be some strong opinions. Even in the dick measuring posts there are lessons to be learned. Try not to add to the fire with school yard type commentary.

Agreed. He comes asking these asinine questions and goes trashing valuable members of the community.

[CrisSilberGrau]

God damn, some of you guys are a tough crowd. Must it always come to this? The thread started off great and as you can see has ended in pure trash, what else is new though.

Lets reiterate the entire purpose of this thread and my inquiry since half of you clowns didn't read it in the first place, but came here to share your 100% unexperienced keyboard opinion...

I have an EXTRA operational S54 on an engine stand with a low mile 6spd transmission in my garage. My full intentions are to perform a rebuild on the engine from the ground up REGARDLESS of the route I take, before I started cracking into the rebuild, I was considering the different options that I have based on my end goal for the engine. I never effing said I was going to put it in my current E46M platform, or that I wanted to be a track superstar, or that your mom doesn't give that good of BJs. I just mentioned what I wanted to use the motor for boost or high RPM seeking real life experience from other alike gearheads.


I know every single thing that I need to know when I see a member with 5,000 post in 5 years slapping absolutely zero value. No life.

I mean, hash tag #internetlyfe, amirite? Go outside.


For those that added value and actual experience, I do appreciate you and your input.

You asked a question thats been asked an uncountable amount of times, in the most active E46 M3 forum on the planet? There will be some strong opinions. Even in the dick measuring posts there are lessons to be learned. Try not to add to the fire with school yard type commentary.

Go balls to the wall NA build. see what 13.5:1 compression can do, max cams, and vanos delete. This car has been done for 25 years... very rarely anything new happens, and its usually incremental.

There are parts in EU that are not available here, ie. P54 heads, and other unobtanium hiding in places. M3Cutters might be another source for info and advice.

PS: I second what 9kracing has said about Anri regarding builds

[9kracing]

OP when you have some spare time give this a read. http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

"It was an expensive reminder that one needs to think (hard) before making any hair-brained decisions regarding rpm with any engine. You’d think that I’d have been old enough to know better, but……………...adrenaline can be a terrible thing."

It's about Honda engines, but it all still applies here. To do an all-motor build properly, requires someone who really knows the engine.

Anri on this site seems like he know the S54 like the back of his hand, if I was going to do a full S54 build I'd reach out to him.

Be prepared to spend some money though.

[BMWfanz]

S54 on ESS is easiest way to have boosted S54. Building turbo or 9500RPM NA will require destrocked engine with bunch of high cost parts and it will be never reliable

[digger]

Look, there were some smart guys racing these engines with big budgets who had them figured out long before the IG dudes came along and pretended it's never been done before. I'm really not trying to sound like a dick, I'm trying to convey to you that where there is hype there is smoke. I've been sharing specific numbers/cams/mods and what they actually made throughout the years on my own engines and friends; yet somehow you just continue to assume that with age these motors are just somehow flowing way more air and have yet to share a single way HOW. Newer standalone ECU's can control detonation better than they could 10-20 years ago but we are talking marginal gains here... you're talking about increases that literally only boost can add just because you want to believe there was something left on the table.

Like I said, there are intentional compromises made in my build. But fully built S54's set to absolute kill mode on race fuel will yield 430-450 at the wheels at 8500rpm.




The question I'd ask is not what his engine will do, but what he makes his dyno say. Or how on earth does a 'mild port' flow enough CFM with a 276 cam to warrant revving 800-1000rpm higher than the 290 cam cars did? That's some serious port velocity - we're well past comparing to S54's, someone call in an S65 to testify! lol

Where are all the 450whp s54 dyno sheets?

[JeremyJames]

God damn, some of you guys are a tough crowd. Must it always come to this? The thread started off great and as you can see has ended in pure trash, what else is new though.

Lets reiterate the entire purpose of this thread and my inquiry since half of you clowns didn't read it in the first place, but came here to share your 100% unexperienced keyboard opinion...

I have an EXTRA operational S54 on an engine stand with a low mile 6spd transmission in my garage. My full intentions are to perform a rebuild on the engine from the ground up REGARDLESS of the route I take, before I started cracking into the rebuild, I was considering the different options that I have based on my end goal for the engine. I never effing said I was going to put it in my current E46M platform, or that I wanted to be a track superstar, or that your mom doesn't give that good of BJs. I just mentioned what I wanted to use the motor for boost or high RPM seeking real life experience from other alike gearheads.


I know every single thing that I need to know when I see a member with 5,000 post in 5 years slapping absolutely zero value. No life.

I mean, hash tag #internetlyfe, amirite? Go outside.


For those that added value and actual experience, I do appreciate you and your input.

[Estoril]

This thread is pretty amazing.

Especially considering that it could lead to winning the HPDE trophy.

[9kracing]

This thread is pretty amazing.

[jvit27]

I Few tips and tricks learned from them as well. IE, doing some minor head work on the exhaust ports. Dremel or the likes is good enough...

Oh. my. god.

[jvit27]

Hey I'm here to learn, you are acting like you know everything so I am asking honest questions. What did I ignore to try and sow some doubt? And what doubt am I trying to sow? All I said is 390whp from a stroker 9yrs ago means there is likely some room left on the table and comparing that to recent tech isn't always an apples to apples comparison. You are the one doubting anything, I think it's completely plausible to spin an S52 a bunch of RPM. Will it live long? IDK, will a comparable S54 live longer? IDK either. But that isn't wasn't the OPs question. I think most of us are in agreement that a 9500RPM 420whp S54 is likely not gonna happen. So if that's off the table what are other options to reach that goal or get close? S52 at 9000 seems like it's a viable option to consider if the RPM is the highlight.

Look, there were some smart guys racing these engines with big budgets who had them figured out long before the IG dudes came along and pretended it's never been done before. I'm really not trying to sound like a dick, I'm trying to convey to you that where there is hype there is smoke. I've been sharing specific numbers/cams/mods and what they actually made throughout the years on my own engines and friends; yet somehow you just continue to assume that with age these motors are just somehow flowing way more air and have yet to share a single way HOW. Newer standalone ECU's can control detonation better than they could 10-20 years ago but we are talking marginal gains here... you're talking about increases that literally only boost can add just because you want to believe there was something left on the table.

Like I said, there are intentional compromises made in my build. But fully built S54's set to absolute kill mode on race fuel will yield 430-450 at the wheels at 8500rpm.

You are right, I asked Michon and he said it was a "mild" port and had a bunch of other work done and that power was made at 8200 RPM. He said there was some room left on the table in the cylinder heads and cams. Either way, your reference to back in the day big cams and KK headers weren't what this engine is making today with smaller cams. That's my point, just because it couldn't be done then doesn't mean it can't now. What's his engine going to do if you put those 290 cams in and a set of the KK headers?

I just like seeing people still being excited in these cars/engines and that development is still on going. Do I want an 9500rpm S54? lol no, but I love that someone else does.

The question I'd ask is not what his engine will do, but what he makes his dyno say. Or how on earth does a 'mild port' flow enough CFM with a 276 cam to warrant revving 800-1000rpm higher than the 290 cam cars did? That's some serious port velocity - we're well past comparing to S54's, someone call in an S65 to testify! lol

[George Hill]

I did see them and addressed previously. You ignored the rest of what I shared just to try and sow some doubt.

Hey I'm here to learn, you are acting like you know everything so I am asking honest questions. What did I ignore to try and sow some doubt? And what doubt am I trying to sow? All I said is 390whp from a stroker 9yrs ago means there is likely some room left on the table and comparing that to recent tech isn't always an apples to apples comparison. You are the one doubting anything, I think its completely plausible to spin an S52 a bunch of RPM. Will it live long? IDK, will a comparable S54 live longer? IDK either. But that isn't wasn't the OPs question. I think most of us are in agreement that a 9500RPM 420whp S54 is likely not gonna happen. So if that's off the table what are other options to reach that goal or get close? S52 at 9000 seems like its a viable option to consider if the RPM is the highlight.

Even the big Sunbelt 290 cams with KK headers weren't cracking 300whp back in the day when these motors were competed with. So if you want to assume 318whp is on a stock head then i'll just stop right here and let your heart pipe dream because there's nothing more for me to say

You are right, I asked Michon and he said it was a "mild" port and had a bunch of other work done and that power was made at 8200 RPM. He said there was some room left on the table in the cylinder heads and cams. Either way, your reference to back in the day big cams and KK headers weren't what this engine is making today with smaller cams. That's my point, just because it couldn't be done then doesn't mean it can't now. What's his engine going to do if you put those 290 cams in and a set of the KK headers?

I just like seeing people still being excited in these cars/engines and that development is still on going. Do I want an 9500rpm S54? lol no, but I love that someone else does.

[332]

IDK whats up with people making under 400whp, for a stroked s54. I understand many different options/variables. We have lots of stroker s54 cars where I live, even at 5700ft they are making 39xwhp.. yikes for our sea level guys. Few tips and tricks learned from them as well. IE, doing some minor head work on the exhaust ports. Dremel or the likes is good enough...

[bmw m3 s50]

Why would you want to turbo an e46 m3 when there are so many turbo m cars available at this point which were purpose built for turbos? I could understand setting up the e46 m3 with a turbo prior to the BMW turbo push, but why now?

Also 9,500 RPM limit? You would be lucky with a 8500RPM limit without damaging the motor long term.

[bmw m3 s50]

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