288/280 vs 280/272 cams.

[ZiMMie]

What does vanos adaption have to do with the accuracy? I have seen ALOT of factory setups with massive vanos cam position adaption stored.
Vanos adaption is only the difference that the vanos have to correct between crank position and the measured cam angle (via toothed wheel on the cams) in combination with cam Offset (from software, different factory values if you come from 0401 or let’s say 2701 version).
So the adaption ist mostly based what offset you set in tune and how good you install them (aka how skilled you are and how good your tools are). You can determine the real accuracy of the cam position if you measure the peak lift point in correlation to the piston.

I’ve heard from problems with some bad cat cam batches, but my personal experience is good with cat cams (but only speaking of s54, habe no other cat cams installed). I had no issues on s54‘s.

Oh i know how vanos adaptation works, I'm very aware of difference version of vanos adaptation values in different softwares.

What i talking about is actually the Cams been so of that you have to adjust maximum vanos target for vanos to work withing its range.

Stock cams are always within the tolerance of maximum adaptation targets.

I'm sure you are not alone with your experience. there are lots of people happy with their cat cams.

My personal experience have not been good with them. i spent too much time thinking it could be other issues later to find out its bad cam.
Ive personally witness 3 cars with cat-cams which such a bad "accuracy" that i had to change the maximum adaption targets in for them to work.
2 were on s54 the other one was an S85.

Before you think that it was an installation error installation was verified with an cam degree tool. Catcam was off past the acceptable software tolerance.
spoke to couple tuners in Europe who has also witness the same issue.

I personally do not recommend them nor will i install them.

Schricks are bang on every single time. Not a single issue!

Whiles at it, here is one i did which didn't have cut threads for oil relief valve. These cams were also off past their maximum target.

P.S. I have new set (Never installed) of 288/280 Catcams for sale if anyone wants them for Cheap.

[digger]

Yes. Cams are not like rod bearings. They need some miles wear in properly.

My 2cents...
1. Buy schricks. Stay away from catcams.it worth the extra $$$
2. Assemble with non synthetic 90w gear oil
3. Run conventional 50w oil with half bottle of non synthetic 90w gear oil. .5L
4. Drive car not exceeding 4500rpm for 4,000km
5. Readjust valve lash and swap oil to 10w60 synthetic.
6. Enjoy a long lasting S54 and change you oil every 8,000km.

attached are pictures of schricks 288/280 running 35,000+km. Oil changed religiously at 5k.
Rockers have well over 200,000km.

Why would you mix and match random oil chemistry it makes zero sense at all. Sorry Using gear oil is nonsense it doesn’t have any real capability to deal with combustion byproducts as it’s not a requirement so will not last/protect long in an engine

Just Buy the correct oil with high pressure additive package suitable for the breakin job.

The s54 is nowhere near as hard on the valve train as what a pushrod v8 with SFT so the recipe for success is well publicised.

The issues with catcams was a production fault if I recall so occurrence of issues is actually still fairly small if the parts are made right.

[S54B32]

Not a single I've installed meet thier own specification sheet.
You can do a simple test of vanos adaptions. With all catcams equipped cars and you will see how much the varies. Yes timing is not all the same but catcams cars are usually more off than Schrick.

Whiles Schick's have a very narrow window.

What does vanos adaption have to do with the accuracy? I have seen ALOT of factory setups with massive vanos cam position adaption stored.
Vanos adaption is only the difference that the vanos have to correct between crank position and the measured cam angle (via toothed wheel on the cams) in combination with cam Offset (from software, different factory values if you come from 0401 or let’s say 2701 version).
So the adaption ist mostly based what offset you set in tune and how good you install them (aka how skilled you are and how good your tools are). You can determine the real accuracy of the cam position if you measure the peak lift point in correlation to the piston.

I’ve heard from problems with some bad cat cam batches, but my personal experience is good with cat cams (but only speaking of s54, habe no other cat cams installed). I had no issues on s54‘s.

[ZiMMie]

Not a single I've installed meet thier own specification sheet.
You can do a simple test of vanos adaptions. With all catcams equipped cars and you will see how much the varies. Yes timing is not all the same but catcams cars are usually more off than Schrick.

Whiles Schick's have a very narrow window.

[Obioban]

it does seem like a lot of people have had issues with cat cams.

[ZiMMie]

The follow up question is what's best practices when installing new cams? And why?

PS would this practice rule out tuning the car on the dyno right after install?

Yes. Cams are not like rod bearings. They need some miles wear in properly.

My 2cents...
1. Buy schricks. Stay away from catcams.it worth the extra $$$
2. Assemble with non synthetic 90w gear oil
3. Run conventional 50w oil with half bottle of non synthetic 90w gear oil. .5L
4. Drive car not exceeding 4500rpm for 4,000km
5. Readjust valve lash and swap oil to 10w60 synthetic.
6. Enjoy a long lasting S54 and change you oil every 8,000km.

attached are pictures of schricks 288/280 running 35,000+km. Oil changed religiously at 5k.
Rockers have well over 200,000km.

[Obioban]

280/272 in mine. I had my car off the road for winter storage and did a major overhaul so whilst it was extra work, it wasn't off the road for any extra time since it was already off the road, if that makes sense. I decided to spend the extra and go for new followers because:
-it is recommended by everyone worth listening to
-to get any warranty with my cams I needed new followers
-Catcams has a special/extra oil bridge to feed oil to the followers for better oiling and lubrication
-a fellow forum member had problems with his cams from the same group buy that I did and he didn't fit new followers so I chickened out there.


I think the main issue is that cam lobes and followers wear in pair, so changing only 1 runs you the risk of mismatched wear patterns and increased wear as a result. I suspect the main difference between the 2 are the aggressiveness so a 288 lends itself more naturally to new followers? IDK..

In general the run in procedure that I was told was to run very thick oil and keep the engine at about 2-3000 rpm for 20-30 minutes. I had relatively fresh oil in mine and didn't follow this to a tee, but my first start, since I did a full cooling refresh, I had to let the car warm up and bleed the entire coolant system first, then I sort of ran the engine at approx 2000rpm for a while. But after that I basically took the car for a gentle drive and went straight to the highway and kept the revs between 2-3000rpm.

Regards

Thick oil at 2-3000 RPM is a normal highway drive in the M3 🤣

[Mr.wReckless]

You went with 288/280 and new followers i assume?

Would someone be able to explain the main reasoning between followers being recommended for 288s vs 280s?

Has anyone not done followers for 288s and found no issues, conversely what are the issues that arise from not doing them?

280/272 in mine. I had my car off the road for winter storage and did a major overhaul so whilst it was extra work, it wasn't off the road for any extra time since it was already off the road, if that makes sense. I decided to spend the extra and go for new followers because:
-it is recommended by everyone worth listening to
-to get any warranty with my cams I needed new followers
-Catcams has a special/extra oil bridge to feed oil to the followers for better oiling and lubrication
-a fellow forum member had problems with his cams from the same group buy that I did and he didn't fit new followers so I chickened out there.


I think the main issue is that cam lobes and followers wear in pair, so changing only 1 runs you the risk of mismatched wear patterns and increased wear as a result. I suspect the main difference between the 2 are the aggressiveness so a 288 lends itself more naturally to new followers? IDK..

In general the run in procedure that I was told was to run very thick oil and keep the engine at about 2-3000 rpm for 20-30 minutes. I had relatively fresh oil in mine and didn't follow this to a tee, but my first start, since I did a full cooling refresh, I had to let the car warm up and bleed the entire coolant system first, then I sort of ran the engine at approx 2000rpm for a while. But after that I basically took the car for a gentle drive and went straight to the highway and kept the revs between 2-3000rpm.

Regards

[CrisSilberGrau]

as long as the original fellows are in good shape i don't see a reason to change them.

I personally know of several cars with over 200,000km on stock rockers with 288/280 cams. some of them rebuild the buttom ends and still used the same rockers with the 288/280 cams.
the trick is allow the cams to break in properly before beating the crap out of the car.

The follow up question is what's best practices when installing new cams? And why?

PS would this practice rule out tuning the car on the dyno right after install?

[ZiMMie]

You went with 288/280 and new followers i assume?

Would someone be able to explain the main reasoning between new followers being recommended for 288s vs 280s?

Has anyone not done followers for 288s and found no issues, conversely what are the issues that arise from not doing them?

as long as the original fellows are in good shape i don't see a reason to change them.

I personally know of several cars with over 200,000km on stock rockers with 288/280 cams. some of them rebuild the buttom ends and still used the same rockers with the 288/280 cams.
the trick is allow the cams to break in properly before beating the crap out of the car.

[CrisSilberGrau]

3000km service after new cams and followers. Didn't see any sign of abnormal wear whatsoever but did notice gunk in my oil filter. Wonder if it's leftovers from the assembly lube I used. Interestingly the clearances were all slightly larger than when I did the install over winter so I reshimmed all valves.

You went with 288/280 and new followers i assume?

Would someone be able to explain the main reasoning between new followers being recommended for 288s vs 280s?

Has anyone not done followers for 288s and found no issues, conversely what are the issues that arise from not doing them?

[Mr.wReckless]

3000km service after new cams and followers. Didn't see any sign of abnormal wear whatsoever but did notice gunk in my oil filter. Wonder if it's leftovers from the assembly lube I used. Interestingly the clearances were all slightly larger than when I did the install over winter so I reshimmed all valves.

[Mr.wReckless]

I've never seen anybody adj the valves using that method. Every video I've ever watched, and pretty much everyone I've ever talked to measures the clearance between the cam lobe/follower...using .008"IN (20mm) and .012"EX (25mm) as the proper clearances. (I actually even adj mine a bit tighter than that.😉) That's a new one on me.

Yeah all videos I've seen too has measured the lash between the back of the lobe and the follower, and this is what I did. And if the rocker ratio is as described per the e-mail from CatCams then my measured .20 and .25 between the lobe and the follower should equate to a slightly larger lash between the valve tip and the follower.

Regards

[stash1]

I had a short e-mail conversation with CatCams about this, and here is their reply:


Regarding valve clearance: don't go on rumors but on datasheets:
http://www.catcams.com/tabid/340/Def...nguage=english
I'd go on intake 0.20mm / exhaust 0.25mm, measured at the valve tip. Due to the rocker ratio, the measured clearance between the lobe and the rocker arm is smaller.


I was in two minds about the last part of the message, "measured at the valve tip". But I ended up following these clearances with the tip of the cam pointing 180 degrees away from the follower/valve. I've yet to hear any ticks or notice anything abnormal after about 1500kms, the car runs strong on a Hassan remote tune. Will soon change the oil and recheck clearances for peace of mind.

Regards

I've never seen anybody adj the valves using that method. Every video I've ever watched, and pretty much everyone I've ever talked to measures the clearance between the cam lobe/follower...using .008"IN (20mm) and .012"EX (25mm) as the proper clearances. (I actually even adj mine a bit tighter than that.😉) That's a new one on me.

[Mr.wReckless]

.25 on both sides per CatCam?

http://www.catcams.com/products/cams...nguage=english

Are you referring to the lower number from the graph on the right? Because the table on the left lists valve lash as OEM... Granted for the Shrick cams the "ventilspiel" is listed at .25 for both intake and exhaust so IDK.

Regards