288/280 vs 280/272 cams.

[CrisSilberGrau]

That's the recommendation from the manufacturer whose input I'm more inclined to follow rather than anyone else. The only reason people choose not to install followers is due to cost, that's it.

What metric would one use to quantify "issues"? How would you know if you had an issue? What if you were down on power without realizing it?



I would break in the cams first, what's the hurry?

Yah man cost is definitely prohibitive sure, but if it means doing things the best possible way then ok. Im trying to gather as much information and also real life experience from sources like this forum. As ever there are differing opinions. My mechanic with loads of experience on Ms only, and building E46 M3 race cars with the parts in question has not used followers and those cars only see race tracks. Other sources close to me that I trust do the same with no issues. So after asking them and why, I'm looking for comparable examples and "how to's" in order to get a clearer picture.

It absolutely makes sense to me get both at the same time, just ... cost.

Lastly I was seriously asking about best practices as it relates to the break in procedure of cams as I was genuinely unaware. DLC install might also considerably add to the install complexity/time. Either way it's a pretty endgame setup for me so looking at all options, best options etc. for me and my use case scenario.

[tlow98]

Cams question -

What about slightly used schricks (280/272) (hundred of miles, not thousands) combined with used followers (high mileage but very normal, no major noticeable wear)?

I see many people combining used cams and new followers or vice versa or new cams and followers.

but both used… what says yee? I’m assuming that’s the most risky pairing?

[jet_dogg]

You went with 288/280 and new followers i assume?

Would someone be able to explain the main reasoning between new followers being recommended for 288s vs 280s?

Has anyone not done followers for 288s and found no issues, conversely what are the issues that arise from not doing them?

That's the recommendation from the manufacturer whose input I'm more inclined to follow rather than anyone else. The only reason people choose not to install followers is due to cost, that's it.

What metric would one use to quantify "issues"? How would you know if you had an issue? What if you were down on power without realizing it?

The follow up question is what's best practices when installing new cams? And why?

PS would this practice rule out tuning the car on the dyno right after install?

I would break in the cams first, what's the hurry?

[digger]

I'm not a chemical engineer nor is it my field of expertise.

what i posted is what I've experience on old rocker shaft with new cams. As you can see in the posted picture, it turn out to work great.
i service other s54 "track cars" that used that break in process.
They are on Schricks 288/280 with old rockers. I'll grab pics next time they are in for service.

Funny enough catcams actually suggested that recipe for installing their new cams and rockers with oil bridge.

if you have experience with other minerals oil share it.

no offense but many people just swap cams and go with their normal oil no issue so it doesn't mean much other than you are unlikely to have issues in the first instance. Nevertheless as a means to minimise risk this is what i would do based on the tribology, physics and chemistry, the more aggressive the cam profile the more important as it is less forgiving.

i always recommend new rockers as as it is a risk trying to break-in a worn rocker and new cam its best of the two parts have the roughness as specified by the manufacturer to bed in together

• check / adjust valve clearances
• cam/rockers shall be prelubed with assembly grease from reputable manufacturer
• Use a breakin oil with appropriate ZDDP from same reputable manufacturer to ensure compatibility e.g. Driven
• run engine at approx 2500rpm for 20min immediately on first start up varying rpm a bit to ensure good oil flow and take some load off the cam nose don't let it idle
• drive as per normal and change breakin oil after the recommended mileage interval.
• check valve clearances at the oil change interval (few hundred miles)
• add you're normal oil of choice GTG

[ZiMMie]

Why would you mix and match random oil chemistry it makes zero sense at all. Sorry Using gear oil is nonsense it doesn’t have any real capability to deal with combustion byproducts as it’s not a requirement so will not last/protect long in an engine

Just Buy the correct oil with high pressure additive package suitable for the breakin job.

The s54 is nowhere near as hard on the valve train as what a pushrod v8 with SFT so the recipe for success is well publicised.

The issues with catcams was a production fault if I recall so occurrence of issues is actually still fairly small if the parts are made right.

I'm not a chemical engineer nor is it my field of expertise.

what i posted is what I've experience on old rocker shaft with new cams. As you can see in the posted picture, it turn out to work great.
i service other s54 "track cars" that used that break in process.
They are on Schricks 288/280 with old rockers. I'll grab pics next time they are in for service.

Funny enough catcams actually suggested that recipe for installing their new cams and rockers with oil bridge.

if you have experience with other minerals oil share it.

Here is a close up picture of the lobe wear following that process on old rockers after 35,000km

[ZiMMie]

What does vanos adaption have to do with the accuracy? I have seen ALOT of factory setups with massive vanos cam position adaption stored.
Vanos adaption is only the difference that the vanos have to correct between crank position and the measured cam angle (via toothed wheel on the cams) in combination with cam Offset (from software, different factory values if you come from 0401 or let’s say 2701 version).
So the adaption ist mostly based what offset you set in tune and how good you install them (aka how skilled you are and how good your tools are). You can determine the real accuracy of the cam position if you measure the peak lift point in correlation to the piston.

I’ve heard from problems with some bad cat cam batches, but my personal experience is good with cat cams (but only speaking of s54, habe no other cat cams installed). I had no issues on s54‘s.

Oh i know how vanos adaptation works, I'm very aware of difference version of vanos adaptation values in different softwares.

What i talking about is actually the Cams been so of that you have to adjust maximum vanos target for vanos to work withing its range.

Stock cams are always within the tolerance of maximum adaptation targets.

I'm sure you are not alone with your experience. there are lots of people happy with their cat cams.

My personal experience have not been good with them. i spent too much time thinking it could be other issues later to find out its bad cam.
Ive personally witness 3 cars with cat-cams which such a bad "accuracy" that i had to change the maximum adaption targets in for them to work.
2 were on s54 the other one was an S85.

Before you think that it was an installation error installation was verified with an cam degree tool. Catcam was off past the acceptable software tolerance.
spoke to couple tuners in Europe who has also witness the same issue.

I personally do not recommend them nor will i install them.

Schricks are bang on every single time. Not a single issue!

Whiles at it, here is one i did which didn't have cut threads for oil relief valve. These cams were also off past their maximum target.

P.S. I have new set (Never installed) of 288/280 Catcams for sale if anyone wants them for Cheap.

[digger]

Yes. Cams are not like rod bearings. They need some miles wear in properly.

My 2cents...
1. Buy schricks. Stay away from catcams.it worth the extra $$$
2. Assemble with non synthetic 90w gear oil
3. Run conventional 50w oil with half bottle of non synthetic 90w gear oil. .5L
4. Drive car not exceeding 4500rpm for 4,000km
5. Readjust valve lash and swap oil to 10w60 synthetic.
6. Enjoy a long lasting S54 and change you oil every 8,000km.

attached are pictures of schricks 288/280 running 35,000+km. Oil changed religiously at 5k.
Rockers have well over 200,000km.

Why would you mix and match random oil chemistry it makes zero sense at all. Sorry Using gear oil is nonsense it doesn’t have any real capability to deal with combustion byproducts as it’s not a requirement so will not last/protect long in an engine

Just Buy the correct oil with high pressure additive package suitable for the breakin job.

The s54 is nowhere near as hard on the valve train as what a pushrod v8 with SFT so the recipe for success is well publicised.

The issues with catcams was a production fault if I recall so occurrence of issues is actually still fairly small if the parts are made right.

[S54B32]

Not a single I've installed meet thier own specification sheet.
You can do a simple test of vanos adaptions. With all catcams equipped cars and you will see how much the varies. Yes timing is not all the same but catcams cars are usually more off than Schrick.

Whiles Schick's have a very narrow window.

What does vanos adaption have to do with the accuracy? I have seen ALOT of factory setups with massive vanos cam position adaption stored.
Vanos adaption is only the difference that the vanos have to correct between crank position and the measured cam angle (via toothed wheel on the cams) in combination with cam Offset (from software, different factory values if you come from 0401 or let’s say 2701 version).
So the adaption ist mostly based what offset you set in tune and how good you install them (aka how skilled you are and how good your tools are). You can determine the real accuracy of the cam position if you measure the peak lift point in correlation to the piston.

I’ve heard from problems with some bad cat cam batches, but my personal experience is good with cat cams (but only speaking of s54, habe no other cat cams installed). I had no issues on s54‘s.

[ZiMMie]

Not a single I've installed meet thier own specification sheet.
You can do a simple test of vanos adaptions. With all catcams equipped cars and you will see how much the varies. Yes timing is not all the same but catcams cars are usually more off than Schrick.

Whiles Schick's have a very narrow window.

[Obioban]

it does seem like a lot of people have had issues with cat cams.

[ZiMMie]

The follow up question is what's best practices when installing new cams? And why?

PS would this practice rule out tuning the car on the dyno right after install?

Yes. Cams are not like rod bearings. They need some miles wear in properly.

My 2cents...
1. Buy schricks. Stay away from catcams.it worth the extra $$$
2. Assemble with non synthetic 90w gear oil
3. Run conventional 50w oil with half bottle of non synthetic 90w gear oil. .5L
4. Drive car not exceeding 4500rpm for 4,000km
5. Readjust valve lash and swap oil to 10w60 synthetic.
6. Enjoy a long lasting S54 and change you oil every 8,000km.

attached are pictures of schricks 288/280 running 35,000+km. Oil changed religiously at 5k.
Rockers have well over 200,000km.

[Obioban]

280/272 in mine. I had my car off the road for winter storage and did a major overhaul so whilst it was extra work, it wasn't off the road for any extra time since it was already off the road, if that makes sense. I decided to spend the extra and go for new followers because:
-it is recommended by everyone worth listening to
-to get any warranty with my cams I needed new followers
-Catcams has a special/extra oil bridge to feed oil to the followers for better oiling and lubrication
-a fellow forum member had problems with his cams from the same group buy that I did and he didn't fit new followers so I chickened out there.


I think the main issue is that cam lobes and followers wear in pair, so changing only 1 runs you the risk of mismatched wear patterns and increased wear as a result. I suspect the main difference between the 2 are the aggressiveness so a 288 lends itself more naturally to new followers? IDK..

In general the run in procedure that I was told was to run very thick oil and keep the engine at about 2-3000 rpm for 20-30 minutes. I had relatively fresh oil in mine and didn't follow this to a tee, but my first start, since I did a full cooling refresh, I had to let the car warm up and bleed the entire coolant system first, then I sort of ran the engine at approx 2000rpm for a while. But after that I basically took the car for a gentle drive and went straight to the highway and kept the revs between 2-3000rpm.

Regards

Thick oil at 2-3000 RPM is a normal highway drive in the M3 🤣

[Mr.wReckless]

You went with 288/280 and new followers i assume?

Would someone be able to explain the main reasoning between followers being recommended for 288s vs 280s?

Has anyone not done followers for 288s and found no issues, conversely what are the issues that arise from not doing them?

280/272 in mine. I had my car off the road for winter storage and did a major overhaul so whilst it was extra work, it wasn't off the road for any extra time since it was already off the road, if that makes sense. I decided to spend the extra and go for new followers because:
-it is recommended by everyone worth listening to
-to get any warranty with my cams I needed new followers
-Catcams has a special/extra oil bridge to feed oil to the followers for better oiling and lubrication
-a fellow forum member had problems with his cams from the same group buy that I did and he didn't fit new followers so I chickened out there.


I think the main issue is that cam lobes and followers wear in pair, so changing only 1 runs you the risk of mismatched wear patterns and increased wear as a result. I suspect the main difference between the 2 are the aggressiveness so a 288 lends itself more naturally to new followers? IDK..

In general the run in procedure that I was told was to run very thick oil and keep the engine at about 2-3000 rpm for 20-30 minutes. I had relatively fresh oil in mine and didn't follow this to a tee, but my first start, since I did a full cooling refresh, I had to let the car warm up and bleed the entire coolant system first, then I sort of ran the engine at approx 2000rpm for a while. But after that I basically took the car for a gentle drive and went straight to the highway and kept the revs between 2-3000rpm.

Regards

[CrisSilberGrau]

as long as the original fellows are in good shape i don't see a reason to change them.

I personally know of several cars with over 200,000km on stock rockers with 288/280 cams. some of them rebuild the buttom ends and still used the same rockers with the 288/280 cams.
the trick is allow the cams to break in properly before beating the crap out of the car.

The follow up question is what's best practices when installing new cams? And why?

PS would this practice rule out tuning the car on the dyno right after install?

[ZiMMie]

You went with 288/280 and new followers i assume?

Would someone be able to explain the main reasoning between new followers being recommended for 288s vs 280s?

Has anyone not done followers for 288s and found no issues, conversely what are the issues that arise from not doing them?

as long as the original fellows are in good shape i don't see a reason to change them.

I personally know of several cars with over 200,000km on stock rockers with 288/280 cams. some of them rebuild the buttom ends and still used the same rockers with the 288/280 cams.
the trick is allow the cams to break in properly before beating the crap out of the car.