288/280 vs 280/272 cams.

[Dave]

Reliability/follower issues aside, I feel like we're still missing a lot of data on these things. And hell, this thread has proven that even some of the data we thought we had (is what the OE CSL cams are) isn't necessarily widespread public knowledge either. I would like to figure out a way that we could test and answer, from a tuner, on the same car, if the age-old assumption of "288/280 shift the power curve to the right" (so, like Obioban says, 280/272 are better down low) is actually true. We accepted this for years, and thus 288 were less common.

Then x Spades x and Nick did their cars with 288. And Nick's car with 288/280 dynoed really really high, even in the middle of the curve, because he had Chris on hand in person to sit there and tweak things.

I think that led to a bit more acceptance of 288s, but it's still one data point, and he had special access to a tuner in person that many of us don't.

Ultimately, I think we'd all be just fine if we got 280s and called it a day... even if we got a bit more out of 288s, chances are most of us wouldn't know it, or that some of the perceived difference could be a placebo.

But... I like that we're curious. And I wonder how we can stay curious and try to get more answers.

So I'm wondering... I have a set of 288s sitting in my garage, I have a stimulus check that I haven't cashed yet, and I have some free time. (Not that swapping camshafts is even that difficult a job once you've done it... but it still requires the ability to set a couple days aside.) I'm wondering if anyone else is also in the same boat, and I wonder if maybe we could band together a group of us to run some tests where we work with both of them with the same tuner, so that that tuner can play with them side-by-side with all other variables controlled. That would serve the dual purpose of getting us all more data and also giving that tuner a ton more experience and authority on the differences.

Is there a way we could do sort of a controlled experiment here? Say maybe I go out and buy a set of 280 CATs to compare to my 288 CATs, someone else with 280 Schrick buys a set of 288 Shricks to compare, we all work together with Paul and Hassan, and everyone learns a lot? Is that worth our time at this point?

[digger]

I have not, but I've done enough cars to piece a clear enough picture of what to expect with each setup.With that said, cams aren't a magic bullet. The has to be in top shape otherwise obviously, I've seen stock cam cars make more than some cammed cars, and some cammed cars making 50 whp more( with similar state of tune barring cams)..so ymmv. But in general, the trend in power gain is as described above.
To others who've asked, yes if I had to do it again, I'd still get the mods bit by bit. Cams, then airbox (or vise versa ) then exhaust etc... At the end of the day, what you really get out of this is the journey, the added performance is just a side effecet imho Also each individually add power on their own, and of course they work even better combined. At the end of the day, it's NA mods

idk mate if you’re seeing huge variations like that then it’s seems like the only real result you get is swapping on the same engine. To many variables to be anything close to scientific

[x Spades x]

I'm very lucky that I have Paul Smith aka Polclaude here to dyno tune it after.

Paul tuned me 2 weeks ago... car feels AWESOME. He is the best tuner, for these cars.

[x Spades x]

I think the 280/272s are a better choice for cars that see any street use.
-Better power below ~7800 rpm
-can reuse stock followers, which makes install much easier (and cheaper)
-smoother idle

I wouldn't be tempted by the 288/280 setup unless I was doing an increase compression ratio and/or stroker and/or high revving (8700+ rpm) build. For a "normal" (full exhaust, CSL intake, etc) bolt on build, 280/272 is the way to go IMO.

My 288/280 Schrick crammed car idles like stock. No looking what's so ever.
Also, I'm strI'mer in every part of the rev range.
I dont see the value in getting cames other than 288/280.

[STAATS]

I have not, but I've done enough cars to piece a clear enough picture of what to expect with each setup.With that said, cams aren't a magic bullet. The has to be in top shape otherwise obviously, I've seen stock cam cars make more than some cammed cars, and some cammed cars making 50 whp more( with similar state of tune barring cams)..so ymmv. But in general, the trend in power gain is as described above.
To others who've asked, yes if I had to do it again, I'd still get the mods bit by bit. Cams, then airbox (or vise versa ) then exhaust etc... At the end of the day, what you really get out of this is the journey, the added performance is just a side effecet imho Also each individually add power on their own, and of course they work even better combined. At the end of the day, it's NA mods

Hey mate - just noticed in your mods list you have TMS pulleys - you are also in a hot climate so how do you find these? I have often toyed with the idea of getting them... almost more as a fun / easy next project but just worried about any adverse effect on cooling due to the reduction on the water pulley... not as fussed ubout alternator and PS pump, they will be fine with a reduction...

[HassanEido]

have you done same engine with both cam sets with no other changes other than the appropriate tune for each?

I have not, but I've done enough cars to piece a clear enough picture of what to expect with each setup.With that said, cams aren't a magic bullet. The has to be in top shape otherwise obviously, I've seen stock cam cars make more than some cammed cars, and some cammed cars making 50 whp more( with similar state of tune barring cams)..so ymmv. But in general, the trend in power gain is as described above.
To others who've asked, yes if I had to do it again, I'd still get the mods bit by bit. Cams, then airbox (or vise versa ) then exhaust etc... At the end of the day, what you really get out of this is the journey, the added performance is just a side effecet imho Also each individually add power on their own, and of course they work even better combined. At the end of the day, it's NA mods

[STAATS]

Will 280 272 cams on a factory manifold with euro extractors/exhaust/ ss race back box make much more power than a standard "euro" s54 after a dyno tune?

I dont have funds for full supersprint exhaust and CSL intake.
Might be able to do cams and tune.

Cheers

I am no expert like Paul and Hassan but through the very long list of reading I did I am lead to believe that each piece of the puzzle (cams, cf airbox, stepped headers & supporting exhaust) will provide performance gains on their own in isolation when tuned for correctly but the gains will be greater when combined. So there is definitely logic to build them up on each other if money doesn't allow the whole gambit in one hit (although buying in one hit and custom tuning once is more cost effective overall - its a large outlay upfront is all)... ie get the cams and tune now and then buy an airbox or exhaust setup when you get the money and re-tune etc making more power at each additional stage.

[digger]

I can confirm the 280 272s are overall better, better average power, more power below 3k rpm. The 288 ties to about 6k then takes over to redline, and makes a smidge more up top from my own testing and cars I've tuned

have you done same engine with both cam sets with no other changes other than the appropriate tune for each?

[BMWahba]

Will 280 272 cams on a factory manifold with euro extractors/exhaust/ ss race back box make much more power than a standard "euro" s54 after a dyno tune?

I dont have funds for full supersprint exhaust and CSL intake.
Might be able to do cams and tune.

Cheers

I am also interested in this! I was planning to run the euro header with 280/272, and an airbox down the road. From what I have read, the cams net you somewhere between 15-20hp, with a nicer power curve.

[ClevoCapri]

Will 280 272 cams on a factory manifold with euro extractors/exhaust/ ss race back box make much more power than a standard "euro" s54 after a dyno tune?

I dont have funds for full supersprint exhaust and CSL intake.
Might be able to do cams and tune.

Cheers

[HassanEido]

I can confirm the 280 272s are overall better, better average power, more power below 3k rpm. The 288 ties to about 6k then takes over to redline, and makes a smidge more up top from my own testing and cars I've tuned

[BMWahba]

Sounds good Staats - give me a shout anytime

Already chatted with you via insta but so glad to see you on here! Once cams/headers are in we'll get a tune going.

[paulclaude]

I'll be coming to you with 280/272 when I can get enough pennies together and find a local dyno to book out and setup a remote session with you

Sounds good Staats - give me a shout anytime

[STAATS]

😂😂

We'll get you sorted out Kev when you decide on what cams to go for. I would personally like to test the 280/272's as most people come to me with the 288/280's for tuning, so I don't have so much data on the 280/272's to compare.

I'll be coming to you with 280/272 when I can get enough pennies together and find a local dyno to book out and setup a remote session with you

[paulclaude]

Paul is currently on lockdown working on his race car - he is also in love now lol.

😂😂

We'll get you sorted out Kev when you decide on what cams to go for. I would personally like to test the 280/272's as most people come to me with the 288/280's for tuning, so I don't have so much data on the 280/272's to compare.