DuracellTTU Build: 280/288 Cams, Lang Head, CSL Airbox, Full SS w/ Dyno Results

[heinzboehmer]

I suppose you could, but you have to remember that the fuel rail mounts have the threads to secure the 10mm bolts. You would have to slot the throttle body bolt pass-thru mounts.

Aaah right, I had it backwards in my mind. Should be doable to remove that brazed nut, slot the hole and reattach the nut further down.

Thanks for posting all that info above! If I ever do cams, I'll probably do injectors at the same time.

[chapmans]

Are there any bigger flow injectors that are the stock form factor and are plug and play? Doesn't sound like it.

[duracellttu]

So the only reason why the stock fuel rail won't work is because the holes for the two 10mm bolts don't line up? Is it possible to slot the mounting holes and keep the stock rail?

I suppose you could, but you have to remember that the fuel rail mounts have the threads to secure the 10mm bolts. You would have to slot the throttle body bolt pass-thru mounts.

[heinzboehmer]

2) Height of the fuel rail: if you use the stock fuel rail it will sit too high because the E14 injectors are taller than the stock injectors. This will not allow the two 10mm mounting bolts to align which keeps the air rail and fuel rail secured. The solution is to use the Radium fuel rail because the mounts are separate prices from the mail section of the rail and you can use washers as spaces to adjust the total height of the rail relative to the mounting points. I used 2 washers as spacers on each side and and found slightly longer M5 bolts. That worked out perfect.

So the only reason why the stock fuel rail won't work is because the holes for the two 10mm bolts don't line up? Is it possible to slot the mounting holes and keep the stock rail?

[duracellttu]

Do you need to do the fuel rail and everything or can you just upgrade the injectors themselves?

Well it depends. The new injectors are not the same physical dimensions as the stock ones. They are taller so there is some geometry you need to take into consideration. I made the post below on another thread but it's worth posting here again. If you are willing to use injectors smaller that 550cc then there are other options that are in the same family of the stock injector which make them plug and play. Choose your own destiny. My logic was that it is easier to tune back a larger injector than swap hardware again because you maxed out a smaller one. I also didn't want to modify the stock hardware and kept it.

I went through LOTS of trial and error before finding this solution. Hope this makes it easier for others in the future.

TLDR - you can modify (enlarge) the stock fuel rail mounting holes to work with the taller injectors or upgrade to the radium rail using the method below.

I just went though this entire install using Bosch 550cc EV14 injectors, Radium fuel rail/plumbing, and a CSL air rail. There are a few critical geometries that you need to take into consideration. I'll try to explain each. It took me a lot of trial and error before getting to a proper configuration. Ready through this entire post before attempting to install. I'll try and find the part numbers of the misc hardware sourced at Home Depot later and add it.

1) Depth of the injector: if you don't use a spacer the lower injector o-ring won't properly seat. The thickness of the space is also important because if it's too tall it will affect the clearance with the rear vacuum line on the air rail. I'll explain more later. I initially used the Rally Road spacers and they didn't work for me. Using 2 of the McMaster Carr notched washers was perfect.

Note: The green lower o-rings that came with the new injectors didn't feel like they fit at tightly in the throttle body. I measured a 0.25mm different in the total width between the stock and new injectors with the o-rings on. To solve this I used the stock upper o-ring on the lower section of the new injectors, removing the green one all together. The injectors fit nice and tight with this setup.

Note: the upper o-ring (blue) on the new injectors felts tight and didn't see a need to use a thicker one.

2) Height of the fuel rail: if you use the stock fuel rail it will sit too high because the E14 injectors are taller than the stock injectors. This will not allow the two 10mm mounting bolts to align which keeps the air rail and fuel rail secured. The solution is to use the Radium fuel rail because the mounts are separate prices from the mail section of the rail and you can use washers as spaces to adjust the total height of the rail relative to the mounting points. I used 2 washers as spacers on each side and and found slightly longer M5 bolts. That worked out perfect.

3) Height of the air rail: the rear vacuum line that attaches to the U-tube (next to the firewall) will interfere with fuel rail since the fuel rail now sits higher. The Radium installation instructions identify this and state that you need to bend the small vacuum metal tube upward using a small wrench. If you don't bend this line it will come in contact with the fuel rail and you won't be able to get the air rail to fully seat on the individual tubes and align with the (2) 10mm mounting bolts. You can use a step drill to enlarge the mount holes on the air rail so it can sit higher, but I didn't want to mangle the air rail. Instead I carefully bent the rear vacuum hard line until it no longer came into contact with the fuel rail.

4) Fuel Injector Wiring Harness: the EV14 adapters will make the harness sit higher. You will need to create more slack so that there is not a lot of tension on the injectors. To do this remove the top section of the black plastic throttle body protection. This is the piece that mounts with (3) 10mm nuts on TB 6 next to the firewall. If you don't remove this you will run into issues with connecting the plumbing to the Radium fuel rail and you will not be able to move the injector harness upward for more slack.

[chapmans]

Do you need to do the fuel rail and everything or can you just upgrade the injectors themselves?

[duracellttu]

Thank you for posting your progression along with dynos. Your latest results are pretty impressive. It seems that fueling was what cured your problem. It sucks that when I first posted, I didn't mention about upgrading the injectors. Other members had similar results as you did until they upgraded the injectors. I am going to be doing a similar NA build in the future and hope I arrive at the 350-360whp mark.

In hind site it totally makes sense that the injectors were the limiting factor in the build. When asking Hassan about the duty cycle on the new tune he told me that he had about 45% more duty cycle to go on these injectors. That's tells me that this setup is running at 55% duty cycle which is right in the sweet spot.

[bmw m3 s50]

Thank you for posting your progression along with dynos. Your latest results are pretty impressive. It seems that fueling was what cured your problem. It sucks that when I first posted, I didn't mention about upgrading the injectors. Other members had similar results as you did until they upgraded the injectors. I am going to be doing a similar NA build in the future and hope I arrive at the 350-360whp mark.

[duracellttu]

Dammit I need to get cams and pulleys. Great work dude!

Do it! This has been a work in progress over the course of 4 years. I've run into so many small little problems that have prevented me from driving the car. I FINALLY feel like it's all sorted. Such a huge weight off my shoulders.

I'll share some more random pics of the build progress and work. Got a really cool video of the TB at WOT with the injector spraying in slow motion.

[SQ13]

Dammit I need to get cams and pulleys. Great work dude!

[duracellttu]

J thanks for updating, solid numbers and glad some gains were made.

The fuck is hd tuning?

Matt from HD Tuning is really big in the e39 M5 community. I had dyno time with him for the M5 and decided to do the M3 at the same time. Wasn't worth the time or effort in hind site…

[jet_dogg]

J thanks for updating, solid numbers and glad some gains were made.

The fuck is hd tuning?

[duracellttu]

This is my third tune and dyno session, all with different tuners. Details below on that evolution. Had a mix of issues between hesitation under throttle and overall drivability. My session today was with HTE Tuning today at EAS in Anaheim. Couldn't be happier with the results. Drive home was a dream and all the previous issues seem to be resolved! Thanks Hassan for your time and effort.

Also, big shout out to thegenius46m for all the advice on the fuel injectors and Radium setup!

Build Details

- 2005 ZCP with ~159,750 miles
- 91 octane pump gas (Shell)
- CSL converted DME w/ CSL software from Kassel Performance, includes H-bridge to support CSL flap in snorkel
- OEM CSL Snorkel with functional flap
- OEM CSL Air Intake Temp Sensor in stock location on airbox
- OEM CSL air filter
- CSL Airbox w/ carbon fiber trumpets (Karbonius)
- Dinan high flow throttle bodies
- OEM air rail modified to fit updated Bosch MAP sensor (P/N 0 261 230 101) in OEM CSL location
- Bosch MAP sensor has OEM scaling from what I recall with previous tuners
- Radium Fuel Rail with pulse damper / Radium stainless steel fuel filter / Radium fuel pressure regulator / OEM fuel pump
- Bosch Injectors, 52lb/550cc @ 3 bar (EV14, P/N 0280158117)
- Ported Intake on Head
- Schrick Cams 288/280
- SuperTech Intake and Exhaust Valves and SuperTech Springs (OEM size and lift)
- Ported Exhaust on Head
- Supersprint V1 Stepped Headers (63.5 mm)
- Supersprint Catted (HJS 200-cell) Section 1
- Supersprint Resonated Twin-Pipe Section 2
- Supersprint Race Mufflers
- Electric Fan Conversion SPAL 2049
- 3.91 diff gears

SAE Correction Factor


STD Correction Factor


For those who are interested in knowing the details of the different tuners, I have used PCS Tuning, HD Tuning, lastly HTE Tuning. There is a hardware difference between the initial 2 and the last with Hassan. The last tune included Dinan TBs, 550cc injectors, and the Radium fuel system upgrades. Also, each tuner had different opinions on the rev limiter value. I put a marker at 8000 rpm for a more direct comparison versus max values in the legend. Not exactly and apples-to-apples comparison, so I wanted to make that clear. Hassan did note that the HD tune had the knock sensors were "way desensitized" and questioned the how safe it was.

RED: HTE Tuning
BLUE: HD Tuning
GREEN: PCS Tuning

SAE Correction Factor


STD Correction Factor

[duracellttu]

So couple things here as I just did an extensive topend build and sorted every possible thing you can think of while in there including redoing things that were “done” already…

Build consists of:

-Lang stage 3 head with supertech single keeper groove valves and upgraded springs
-schrick 280/272 cams with dlc followers
-bosch ev14 550cc injectors with radium fuel rail
-karbonius csl airbox with map sensor and csl dme conversion
-spal 2049 electric fan with custom Zionville shroud


Big one is the injectors, you are 100% out of fuel with that setup because I hilariously ran out with milder cams all across the board but still made 348whp on a mustang dyno. And the freshly rebuilt stock injectors were out of fuel all across the revband so my tuner had to dial back everything to keep the car safe, robbing power. Drivability wasn’t great outside of wot but the car was safe.

Upgrading the injectors to 550cc was CRUCIAL imho. Stock is basically maxed out and are a literal waste of time if you have any engine work done.

The equation is really simple… if you add more air into the engine via cams, airbox, porting, etc, you need more fuel and stock injectors aren’t going to cut it clearly.

My car stopped making power at 8200 with stock injectors and moving to 550 the car pulls CONSIDERABLY harder and smoother all across the rev band and I’m still making power at 8600rpm. Could go higher but for a car that constantly sees redline, not sure it’s worth it to me.

Also I’d pressure test your vanos if you changed oil pump disks as that is a bad idea (idc what people say) because the tolerances of the disk and vanos unit wear together and if you get a higher mileage disk the pressure will drop considerably and drastically limit the system from working. Happened to me and I had to get an entire replacement vanos unit.

I’d also leakdown test the engine because Lang’s machinist isn’t as good as he’s hyped to be. I got my head back with three leaking valves and had my local guy redo the valve seating. Don’t assume it’s good because it’s Lang. He’s a pos and doesn’t hold up to his claims.






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Thanks for chiming in. I just read through your post on the fuel injectors. I am going to reach out to Hassan and pick up a set of Bosch EV14 550cc injectors.

Hoping to pick your brain in the spacers required for this setup and any other mods to the fuel system.

[digger]

I appreciate the confirmation on the injectors and I’ll be reaching out to Hassan. Being in LA, I plan to use EAS for my next dyno day. For the inexperienced, it’s hard to tell if a a builder or tuner is “over-rated”. Back 4 years ago when I started this build, nobody had bad things to say about Lang (or it wasn’t advertised) and people were moving away from FSTT and raving about Paul. Hassan wasn’t formally tuning cars as a business yet either. Live and learn I guess. Just good to see the community and platform continuing to grow and evolve.

Any recommendations on injectors I should consider? Can the stock fuel pump handle any larger injectors I upgrade to? Can I also use the stock FPR?

Thanks in advance for the help!

You’ve not been on here for long ? Tuners get like 3 years and then the forum turns on them