no-nonesense track brake setup

[E46m3zcp]

I'm looking to set up my brakes for my track toy car. The build isn't a fancy race car or anything like that, just the "no-nonsense" build: weight reduction, Ohlins R&T, stiffer bushings, Hotchkis sway bars. Just a fun track car full of rubber marks.
(despite my profile name, it isn't a ZCP, that's my other M3!)

I have not yet upgraded my brakes, except for installing stainless braided lines and sportier pads, as I wanted to hit that bottleneck. I did hit it last time I was at WGI, using stock brakes and EBC blue stuff pads - they became stiff and inconsistent, and wore down very fast. I want to remedy this (hopefully) without going the full BBK route and I was considering:

- ECS tuning ZCP brackets and GiroDisc 345mm rotors in the front
- Hawk DTC-60 in front and DTC-70 in back (to compensate for the fact that I don't have ZCP callipers in the rear with larger bore pistons).

OR

- keep brakes stock (non-zcp)
- PFC compound 08 all around.

Note: my fluid is Motul RBF 660 - so that's already a green checkmark.


I heard great things about the PFC (wear rate is decent as they are an endurance pad, 08s are consistent at a wider temperature range), and that was my first option, but I would like to benefit from the FCP lifetime hack. FCP sells the HAWK pads and GiroDisc rotors, but not the PFC ones.

Any thoughts about these options? Should I just bite the bullet and get a BBK/retrofit? I heard that the sliding callipers aren't that bad at all... Remember this is a track build and not a show car where I want these big red callipers to stand out lol

[Obioban]

To address the heat issue, only dedicated track pads are going to do it. EBC blue are street/track, which is not dedicated track.

The benefits of a good BBK are..
better pedal feel
faster/easier pad swaps
longer pad life
often reduced unsprung/rotating mass

They're a great upgrade-- and not going to solve your heat issue. So, consider those two questions separately :P

[E46m3zcp]

I feel like the right way forward might be a bbk, actually. I've a 2k shopping cart full of maintenance parts I need (to which I still need to add rod bearings parts), adding a bbk to the stack makes me dizzy lol :P

But on the long term I would recoup some from longer pad life and saving some time swapping them huh.

I guess I could sacrifice a set of pfc 08's for my next season, and plan for a BBK after that. It would get me the "gradual" improvement experience: first solve the heat issue, then improve the other aspects and see impact on lap times.

[CrisSilberGrau]

I'm looking to set up my brakes for my track toy car. The build isn't a fancy race car or anything like that, just the "no-nonsense" build: weight reduction, Ohlins R&T, stiffer bushings, Hotchkis sway bars. Just a fun track car full of rubber marks.
(despite my profile name, it isn't a ZCP, that's my other M3!)

I have not yet upgraded my brakes, except for installing stainless braided lines and sportier pads, as I wanted to hit that bottleneck. I did hit it last time I was at WGI, using stock brakes and EBC blue stuff pads - they became stiff and inconsistent, and wore down very fast. I want to remedy this (hopefully) without going the full BBK route and I was considering:

- ECS tuning ZCP brackets and GiroDisc 345mm rotors in the front
- Hawk DTC-60 in front and DTC-70 in back (to compensate for the fact that I don't have ZCP callipers in the rear with larger bore pistons).

OR

- keep brakes stock (non-zcp)
- PFC compound 08 all around.

Note: my fluid is Motul RBF 660 - so that's already a green checkmark.


I heard great things about the PFC (wear rate is decent as they are an endurance pad, 08s are consistent at a wider temperature range), and that was my first option, but I would like to benefit from the FCP lifetime hack. FCP sells the HAWK pads and GiroDisc rotors, but not the PFC ones.

Any thoughts about these options? Should I just bite the bullet and get a BBK/retrofit? I heard that the sliding callipers aren't that bad at all... Remember this is a track build and not a show car where I want these big red callipers to stand out lol

Ill side with Obioban on this.

To add, RBF 660 imo is not enough if youre gonna keep using the stock brakes with PFC08/11 etc. Either RBF 700 or Castrol SRF. If you're serious about track and lap time to a point where you dont mind sacrificing road manners then your path to mods should be clear.

Weight, is the number one concern in almost all areas when concerning performance on track. Applies to brakes as well.

All that being said there's quite a lot of performance head room on a stock brake setup with appropriate enhancements as mentioned above. Read, as a driver there's quite a bit of learning to do to maximize whats already there, which will translate much faster/easier when you upgrade the car.

[George Hill]

IMO I'm running the best budget setup: M3 brakes, no dust shields, random blank rotors, SS brakelines, Castrol SRF and A GOOD set of race brake pads (I'm very happy with the RaceMagic pads I have now). No issues at all, my car does 140mph at CoTA, weights 2940# w/o driver and I run 200tw tires.

There are plenty of benefits with a real performance oriented BBK, but I think the barrier to entry is quite a big jump.

***I am not a top tier driver, but in the advanced groups I run in I hold my own and late brake a decent amount of cars.

[Estoril]

- keep brakes stock (non-zcp)
- PFC compound 08 all around. (or PFC-11)

[Obioban]

IMO I'm running the best budget setup: M3 brakes, no dust shields, random blank rotors, SS brakelines, Castrol SRF and RaceMagic brake pads. No issues at all, my car does 140mph at CoTA, weights 2940# w/o driver and I run 200tw tires.

There are plenty of benefits with a real performance oriented BBK, but I think the barrier to entry is quite a big jump.

***I am not a top tier driver, but in the advanced groups I run in I hold my own and late brake a decent amount of cars.

The best budget setup is the 100% FCP setup!

SRF, 996 calipers with ZCP rotors, and 996 sized Hawk track pads (vomit)-- everything is paid for by FCP. Mailed off almost $3000 of brake components for replacement this morning, as yesterday was my last day on track this year :P

I've been on the FCP paying for my rotors/pads/fluid for 5 years now. It's certainly worse than my old Brembo GT kit, but still has the BBK pedal feel and easy pad swaps.


... the pad swaps are really the thing that's hard to come back from, once you're used to BBK life. The floating calipers are just a PITA in comparison.

[George Hill]

The best budget setup is the 100% FCP setup!.

I agree that it is a really good setup, I'm going to change my statement to a good race pad. I really like the RM pads and I ran DTC 60s for years via FCP for that exact reason. But I swapped to the RM pads last year and the car was instantly better to drive when on the brakes. I still have the DTC60s and even with free replacement I have no intention of going back. The RM pads are run on a lot of endurance race teams and many teams have pads that last a full 16+hr weekends with life still in them.

IMO a real race pad is the most important aspect of the setup (not saying other items aren't important I'm just say its the top of the list).

... the pad swaps are really the thing that's hard to come back from, once you're used to BBK life. The floating calipers are just a PITA in comparison.

And that's totally fair but changing pads on a stock caliper is not that much more work in the grand scheme of things. With electric ratchets now I'd wager is less than 10 min per axle taking your time. And he did say track toy so IDK how much street driving he is doing but I've run DTC60s and the RM pads a ton on the street when I'm being lazy, lol.

[Obioban]

Yeah, that Hawk pads are trash. But.... for the price of free, it's a sacrifice I"m willing to make.

... and for a "budget" setup, hard to argue with free.

(and happily there's no shortage of good street pads for this setup)

[bigjae46]

Brakes are the first thing I over-upgrade.

Brake ducts help pads to last longer. I got about 8 days without, 10-11 days with ducts when the car was at 3000lbs (with a stoptech BBK). I am going to try a brake deflector plate. Got one side made, need to collect some temp and aero data this weekend.

Braking technique has a massive impact on how the brakes perform and how long they last. Many novices are taught how to threshold brake which is important, but I would say that you should only be threshold braking for a short moment. Too many keep the brakes on too long to kill the understeer when they turn in when it is the technique in how the brakes are being applied and released that is causing the understeer. This puts a lot more heat and wear in the brakes.

If I tried hard enough I could easily roast a set of brake pads in a day which would normally last about 12-14 days.

[9kracing]

(Full disclosure I'm sponsored by Paragon)


If you look around 10% off codes can be found, and for $2600 for a complete kit I find this BBK very compelling. Alcon calipers are of the same quality as Brembo.

https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-alcon-big-brake-kit-front-mono-6-bmw-m3-e46/

[E46m3zcp]

Thanks all,

Now thinking of a 996 retrofit, I'll keep an eye out on the FS part of the forum.

Yes, it's an expense, but it makes the track days more fun; they are already expensive, so it's frustrating when something like fading brakes ruins a day at the track. 996 callipers + ZCP rotors and free FCP HAWK sounds like a good plan, even though it slightly biases the braking towards the front. Should I offset DTC60 and DTC70 (assuming they are available for the 996 callipers)?

[m3panda]

Took my car out for first time on track - similar build philosophy (MCS 1w, 95a subframe / diff bushings, syncro design RTAB, rest OEM, Recaro ABE seat, Autosolution SSK 35% + stock gooseneck), running Yoko AD09s.

Brake setup:
- RBF600
- Stock calipers + brass caliper pin bushings
- Stock lines
- DTC60 F
- HT-10 R
- Stock slotted + drilled non ZCP rotors
- No ducting

Was able to run 1:17 consistently at NJMP Lightning, did feel the pads overheat after about 8 hotlaps, felt the car push a bit braking into T7.

When backing off and driving at 7/10ths, I noticed the brakes perform more consistently as I wasn't overdriving them.

I personally think you could probably get away with stock brake setup when paired with better cooling (ducting , deflecting plates), but that means added components.

BBK does take the hassle and guesswork out of it with improved thermal capacity - if you have the dough for it I say go for it.

I'm looking at either the AP 4pot or Neotech EVO-R 6p (very similar pricepoint) as my next upgrade.

[bigjae46]

(Full disclosure I'm sponsored by Paragon)


If you look around 10% off codes can be found, and for $2600 for a complete kit I find this BBK very compelling. Alcon calipers are of the same quality as Brembo.

https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-alcon-big-brake-kit-front-mono-6-bmw-m3-e46/

Interesting. What is the FMSI pad shape for the alcon caliper?

[9kracing]

Interesting. What is the FMSI pad shape for the alcon caliper?

https://alconkits.com/blogs/alcon-reference-guides/alcon-brake-pad-fmsi-cross-reference